DISQUS

David · 2 years ago

There are so many issues at hand in this vastly complex issue. Whether it be discrimination and racism on both sides of the street, to the drug and gangsterism so idealized in young black culture, to a conditioned response to Democratic jargon.

This systemic problem will take at least another century if not more to untangle it's death grip on American culture.

jesse · 2 years ago

I am interested in seeing these data broken down further by family structure. How is mobility among single parent families vs two parent families? A black/white X one parent/two parent family analysis would be interesting to see.

Steve · 2 years ago

Decades of research continue to uphold the obvious. The poor economic performance of blacks in general, and black males in particular, is inextricably linked to sky-high illegitimacy and divorce rates. Only a tiny fraction of black males enjoy the privilege of growing up with their biological fathers. My heart goes out to this poor young boys born without a chance, but I have no influence on the attitudes or behavior of their parents, who all too often are still children themselves. Neither does the government.

As a society we have a long way to go, but how do you propose to get there?

joekc · 2 years ago

I wonder if, in our recently-developed societal desire to help everyone celebrate their own particular, unique cultural heritage, we have not manufactured (inadvertently) much of this problem for ourselves? Perhaps we will need to face what is a rather hard "fact" - there are some cultures that are not worth saving, as a culture. For example, Much of inner-city black culture is destructive to the people who live within it, so destructive that, as the author points out, ". . .black Americans have had more difficulty than whites in transmitting those (middle class) benefits to their children." If this statement is really true (and at first blush, it struck me as a somewhat racist outlook, but I think it is nevertheless true), then it may help us understand that one of the best things that "middle-class whites" can do is to help extend the successful elements of our culture to the black sub-culture, of which there are so many unsuccessful and harmful aspects.
I am not proposing a reintroduction of "the white man's burden," but merely that we re-acknowledge something that we have tended to forget, in our zeal to recognize the uniqueness of all mankind - that some aspects of some cultures are basically negative, and need to go away.

nad2 · 2 years ago

"I am convinced that if we are to get on the right side of the world revolution, we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values. We must rapidly begin the shift from a "thing-oriented" society to a "person-oriented" society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered." MLK - "Beyond Vietnam"

we still have the giant triplets and are still thing-oriented, in our culture at large & in most all of our subcultures. plus, as much as we'd like to think otherwise, our grandchildren will still be facing the ramifications of jim crow.

God help us and send us more prophets like Martin King.

Ngchen · 2 years ago

It is unfortunate that the problem persists. Something that is undoubtedly true is the fact that the way things are, those who are currently wealthy have a MUCH easier time staying wealthy and even making more money than those who have less. It is very unfortunate how racism, even if subconscious (which I believe it tends to be nowadays), tends to eat away at people. It is true that minority poverty is probably caused by a variety of factors in combination (out-of-wedlock births, the negative cultural aspects glorifying violence and drugs, and systematic racism probably ALL play a role). For those who doubt the existence of hidden prejudices (I used to myself), check out the commercial a few years ago of a white man wanting to rent an apartment. Good credit history, good job (think positive). Morph him into a single-parent mom (less positive). Into a minority (less positive than the org guy I knew in my mind this was wrong, but I must confess the initial reaction was less positive.) Morph into someone with a disability (less positive as well). For me at least, the commercial was biting in that it forced me to confront subconscious stereotypes that have built up over the years. I'm guessing it's true for many, many other people as well.

Alas, for such a disease of the heart, it probably really will take another century before we can be truly rid of this scourge. But we can at least all try.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Percentage of Children Living in Single-Parent Households (2005):

Caucasion: 23%

African American: 65%

Is it any wonder that two-income families do much better than one-income families?

Donny · 2 years ago

Ahhh, when all else fails in election propaganda. . . go to good old fashioned fomenting of hatred for white people. The new hated class.

White "families" are successful because they ARE families and for no other reason.

How about Chinese-Americans Jim?

marialynn · 2 years ago

Wow..."hatred"....little harsh there Donnie...

The numbers speak for themselves, granted statistics can be manipulated but Pew Charitable trusts is a reputable source.

I am a white woman and I do see racism where I live. I see my black friends followed in stores and often treated with less respect than others.
I pray that things will one day change so equality will truly one day be a reality.

Bill Cosby's latest book brings up some interesting points on the argument of systematic racism vs. personal responsibility/opportunity.
I'm still cautious on my opinion because as a white woman, I can never know exactly what it is like to live as an african american.

I do know one thing, "race" is a discussion that needs to be had in our country. I used to work for former Sen. Bill Bradley and he would often speak about race and it's impact. However, many people didn't feel like it was important. This study is proof that we need to help heal the divisions in our country and continue the progress of the civil rights movement.

Maria

Speak out for those who cannot speak, for the rights of all the destitute. Speak out, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy.
- Proverbs 31:8-9

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

I am interested in seeing these data broken down further by family structure. How is mobility among single parent families vs two parent families? A black/white X one parent/two parent family analysis would be interesting to see.

Not much difference, probably, because blacks, even two-parent families, are not represented among the "super-rich." They generally don't own stocks and bonds and are not large employers. When eliminating the estate tax on those folks were hot, Bush tried to sell it to the black community -- until it turned out that it would affect only double digits.

Ahhh, when all else fails in election propaganda. . . go to good old fashioned fomenting of hatred for white people. The new hated class.

Donny -- did the entry say anything about "white"?

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

Wish the Wallis entry had solutions of possiblle government policies that he believed would help .

I assume he believes government policies are the answers , obviously LBJ policies of the 60s did not solve all the problems . Just thought it would make sense to share those .

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

"Bill Cosby's latest book brings up some interesting points on the argument of systematic racism vs. personal responsibility/opportunity.
I'm still cautious on my opinion because as a white woman, I can never know exactly what it is like to live as an african american."

Totally agree , just not possible is it . Being followed in a store with an assumption of bad motives , hard to understand what that is like based on your color , only from my hippe days when I got pulled over quite often can I perhaps identify , but I could always cut my hair . With
also being a conservative on this blog and having motives and ideas being stereotyped for evil motives I can somewhat understand m, but I can always shut up and agree with the lefts view and being one of the good old boys here .

I be carefull with Donny's motives Maria , have never heard you speak to the discrimination that often comes off with more bombastic remarks from the left concerning this issue I. Some people call it reverse discrimination , as if to label one less then another , there is no such thing as reverse discrimination , only discrimination .

The left also will often rationalize certain bigotry in certain areas based on the preseumption that it is justified .

Nope , never is , never will be . Too many have died proving that point . And the Bible teaches He created all of us , and He respects no one above the other .

jesse · 2 years ago

James Taranto of the WSJ has an interesting criticism of this study, which actually seems to tell a different story than the one provided here. I quote below:

"The main story here has nothing to do with racial inequality--and while the AP presents all the relevant facts, it puts them in no particular order, so that you have to puzzle out what's actually going on. To get a clearer picture, go to the original study and look at Figure 1, on the sixth page of the PDF.

According to this chart, the median personal income for white women in their 30s was $4,021 in 1975. For black women in their 30s it was $12,063. In 2005, the figures were $22,030 for white women and $21,000 for black women.

So black women in 1974--just a decade after the Civil Rights Act--were making three times as much as their white counterparts? How can that be? The footnote gives away the game: "All men and women ages 30-39, including those with no personal income, are included in these estimates."

It seems clear that in 1974 a much higher percentage of black women than white women had paying jobs, and that in the subsequent three decades huge numbers of white women entered the work force. In this sense the real story is a closing of the gap to the detriment of whites, as necessity forces more white women to work."

jesse · 2 years ago

"Not much difference, probably, because blacks, even two-parent families, are not represented among the "super-rich." They generally don't own stocks and bonds and are not large employers. When eliminating the estate tax on those folks were hot, Bush tried to sell it to the black community -- until it turned out that it would affect only double digits."
--This may partially account for rising inequality, but it doesn't account for lack of mobility, which was my main point.

How mobile are the children of families with two parents vs. one parent? Is the lack of income mobility among black children explained at least in part by the absence of fathers?

Nuttshell · 2 years ago

I will try to restrain myself from the condescending patronage of Steve's comment...you are horribly insulting and (oh nevermind).

I take real exception to the following assertion. "Decades of research continue to uphold the obvious. The poor economic performance of blacks in general, and black males in particular, is inextricably linked to sky-high illegitimacy and divorce rates. Only a tiny fraction of black males enjoy the privilege of growing up with their biological fathers. My heart goes out to this poor young boys born without a chance, but I have no influence on the attitudes or behavior of their parents, who all too often are still children themselves."

Tiny fraction of black males? What is that based upon? And you know for a fact that these black males have no access or privilege of being around their fathers? As a black woman, I am tired of white people making all kinds of assumptions about black families. Maybe the poor economic performance of black males might be due to the disproportionate rates of incarceration. 1 in 3 black males between the ages of 20 - 29 is in jail, parole or probation.

From Human Rights Watch - "In every state, the proportion of blacks in prison exceeds, sometimes by a considerable amount, their proportion in the general population."

"Blacks are incarcerated nationally at a rate of 1,547 per 100,000 black residents. In some states, the black rate of incarceration reaches extraordinary levels. In Alaska, Arizona, Connecticut, Delaware, Iowa, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Texas, Wisconsin and the District of Columbia, blacks are incarcerated at rates that exceed 2,000 per 100,000. The lowest incarceration rate for blacks, 570 in North Dakota, exceeds the highest rate for whites, 440 in Arizona."

See the following for more http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/Rcedrg00-01.htm.

Of course, one of the factors in generational wealth comes from the change in values that have gripped our group/culture over the past 30-40 years. We have been seduced by mass consumerism at a rate higher than other groups. My grandparents worked in government but also believed in owning businesses. My parents believed in attaining the good paying jobs of corporate America. As a middle-class, highly educated child of color, I was very conscious of the push for consumerism and attainment of wealth particularly during the Reagan years. (I was a business school graduate.) We've done ourselves a disservice because like starving people finally allowed to the table, we've made no provisions for when we are cut off from the table.

Our youth and children are constantly being fed the idiotic and cartoon images of rappers, entertainers and athletes. How many of those image makers are going to have anything when they are no longer in the spotlight? Some of the problem is our culture (which is fed to us by some of the corporate bigshots - Viacomm, etc.), some of it is the inherent disparity in the judicial system and some of it is just plain us. Some of our parents and our grandparents (who are still living) know the check is going to come due one day. Our days of living high off the hog (relatively speaking) is going to come down like a house of cards. While we lack behind many other groups, compared to what our parents and grandparents had, we have a lot today. Too many black people are hoping and wishing that the affluence we are experiencing now will always continue. In some ways, even the black poor today has more than many black middle class did a century ago.

Nuttall · 2 years ago

It would appear that my comment of a few moments ago won't be posted. I wonder why?

marialynn · 2 years ago

Mick-
Great points...thanks for the insight.
I think in a nutshell, what it all boils down to on the right & on the left; black and white- is tolerance and understanding. You are correct- many times conclusions are automatically jumped onto and assuptions falsely made.

Pax Christi-
Maria

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

I assume he believes government policies are the answers, obviously LBJ policies of the 60s did not solve all the problems. Just thought it would make sense to share those.

Well, even LBJ understood that the answers are in part political, which is why "government programs" were, and to a certain extent still are, necessary. Part of the reason we have the disparity was due to "soft" racism perpetrated by certain institutional barriers that were often clearly based on race. (In the South, of course, those barriers were written into law.)

It seems clear that in 1974 a much higher percentage of black women than white women had paying jobs, and that in the subsequent three decades huge numbers of white women entered the work force. In this sense the real story is a closing of the gap to the detriment of whites, as necessity forces more white women to work.

But that isn't anywhere near the whole story, because it doesn't take into account several factors -- one of which was that black women have always had to work to support their families because their husbands often had trouble finding good-paying work. And in fact, it was often easier for black women than men to find work in the first place, often as domestics. Truth be told, black men suffer the most.

How mobile are the children of families with two parents vs. one parent? Is the lack of income mobility among black children explained at least in part by the absence of fathers?

It really isn't. Black men don't make that much money compared to everyone else (even when education and experience are factored in) -- they aren't promoted at the same rate and, comparatively speaking, don't have as much access to the power structure. That causes everyone to lose respect for them -- especially the women and eventually the children. Conservatives complain all the time about "affirmative action," but the lack thereof actually does hurt.

Me · 2 years ago

Rick Nowlin,

"A major finding is that the while overall incomes are rising, the income gap between African American and white families is also rising."

That is the second sentence in Wallis's blog.

I'm going with "white families" being comprised of "white" people.

The Left has been fomoenting hatred of whited and has pushed for a war between the races since the hippies cut their hair and put on suits and ties.

Donnie

Donny · 2 years ago

I apologize for the last post and the typo's. A smart-aleck friend thought they'd be funny with my response. It's the last time I'll ever let anyone sit at the keyboard while reading the blogs.


Donny

Yeah, with a y.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

The Left has been fomoenting hatred of whited and has pushed for a war between the races since the hippies cut their hair and put on suits and ties.

Ridiculous -- most leftists are themselves white and thus wouldn't cut their own throats. Besides, the conservatives have always started race wars (it wasn't the left that fought for civil rights for minorities, for example). And folks still wonder why blacks don't vote conservative.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

Correction: It wasn't the right that fought for civil rights.

jesse · 2 years ago

Rick,
My proposal (that family structure can explain at least part of the inequality) can easily be examined through the use of data. You wave off this proposal very confidently as if to state that racism is the entire story. I believe it is part of the story, but it certainly isn't everything. Having a father around definitely matters. Even the Urban League (see the original story) admit as much.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

My proposal (that family structure can explain at least part of the inequality) can easily be examined through the use of data. You wave off this proposal very confidently as if to state that racism is the entire story. I believe it is part of the story, but it certainly isn't everything. Having a father around definitely matters. Even the Urban League (see the original story) admit as much.

I understand what you're saying, but simply having a father in the house doesn't really say a whole lot, especially if he doesn't have a good job to support a family -- in fact, if that be the case he won't be in the house for long for reasons I've already mentioned. Pure data need to be interpreted properly and in historical context, which I understand but which you really don't do in this case.

Some years ago one of the proposed strategies for poor single mothers to uplift themselves out of poverty was to get married. The trouble was (and the women themselves understood this) that the pool of men available to them simply don't measure up. Having a man around if he's not really a contributing factor to the stability of the home, which is often the case, causes more harm than good. What good is "a man in the house" if he won't/can't take care of business?

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Correction: It wasn't the right that fought for civil rights.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin

IT WAS THE LEFT . LBJ DID ORIGINALLY OK KING TO BE INVESTIGATED BY THE FBI . BUT WHEN THE LEFT IS WRONG , NO ONE IS SUPPOSE TO NOTICE.

kevin s. · 2 years ago

"The numbers speak for themselves, granted statistics can be manipulated "

You contradicted yourself in ten words.

"I do know one thing, "race" is a discussion that needs to be had in our country."

I agree. But it should be a dialogue, not a monologue. I am unwilling to be lectured on the issue of race, and I do not relinquish my right to participate in democracy simply because I am a white male. I am more than willing to discuss race as it relates to politics, but the idea that I must simply assent Wallis' political conclusions does not follow from that discussion.

"Not much difference, probably, because blacks, even two-parent families, are not represented among the "super-rich.""

Have you never looked into the question of whether black people who are the product of two-parent households fare better than those who come from single-parent households? Do you reallly assume there is not much difference? Do you have any evidence to support the notion that there is no difference, or are we simply to accept you assumption.

"But that isn't anywhere near the whole story, because it doesn't take into account several factors -- one of which was that black women have always had to work to support their families because their husbands often had trouble finding good-paying work"

Or, rather, because the men in their lives vanished. Are we having an honest discussion here, or do we have to play the game?

"It really isn't. Black men don't make that much money compared to everyone else (even when education and experience are factored in)"

Can you back this up with evidence? I'd love to see it.

"Donny -- did the entry say anything about "white"?"

Um, yeah... Seven times. Did you even read the thing?

"Ridiculous -- most leftists are themselves white and thus wouldn't cut their own throats."

That's what trust funds are for. I can't tell you the number of times I've been lectured by liberal white kids who have millions of dollars in the bank, courtesy of tax-sheltered trust-funds provided by their fathers. Of course they are willing to raise taxes to assuage their white guilt. I have no white guilt, because I have had nothing handed to me.

"It would appear that my comment of a few moments ago won't be posted. I wonder why?"

Because Sojo doesn't want the message boards to be clogged with ads for Cialis. Calm down.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

I can't tell you the number of times I've been lectured by liberal white kids who have millions of dollars in the bank, courtesy of tax-sheltered trust-funds provided by their fathers.

At least they're somewhat involved in addressing the issue, which is far more than I can say for you. Besides, the most dangerous people I know of are wealthy conservatives, one of which lives in my city, who capitalize on the "politics of resentment."

krazy · 2 years ago

so, neocons, there's no corporate racism against minorities, there's a massive liberal conspiracy against the white man, and poverty in the black community is their own fault?

wow, that's some real enlightened thinking there guys. that's a real dialogue. that kind of talk'll be sure to generate some solutions.

Steve · 2 years ago

Note to nutshell - don't shoot the messenger. It's not about race: non-blacks raised without their fathers face the same long odds. Nothing will convince someone who has shut their mind to the possibility, but for those who have not, a comprehensive review of the subject was published by David Blankenhorn in "Fatherless America" (1996). If you want proof, it's all right there.

I fully sympathize with your point about incarceration. Which takes us right back to the original point - correcting for family structure eliminates the difference in crime rates between black and white. Black men raised in intact two-parent households are no more likely to become incarcerated than their white counterparts.

jesse · 2 years ago

"My point is that economic disparity is causing the kind of dysfunction that you bring up, not the other way around."
--If economic hardship was causing fatherlessness among blacks, the illegitimacy rate would have been much higher in the early to mid-20th century. In fact, the reverse is true. Black Americans, as a group, have never had as much rights and prosperity, yet the rates of fatherlessness, sadly, are higher today than they ever were. Denying these facts and playing the regular "blame white conservatives" game might make you and liberal politicians feel better, but it's only harming the black community in the long-term.

"If white conservatives were willing to work for the rights and freedoms of everyone we wouldn't need this conversation -- but since the conservatives on this blog are not, you really don't have much standing."
--Yeah, we're interested in denying black people their "rights and freedoms." You figured us out.

methinks · 2 years ago

straw men, straw men, straw men...

it's troubling to me how the first, knee-jerk reaction of some folks to a study like this (from a reputable research organization -- and mind you, the general findings themselves aren't new) appears to be "what's wrong with the message and/or the messenger?" or "how can i interpret these findings such that i don't have to do anything or think any differently?" it must be lack of parenting skills and rap music, right? i mean, i can't do anything about that!

there's certainly nothing wrong with the grain of salt approach in general, but there is when it becomes nitpicking and strawman-building at the expense of basic facts that need to be addressed. (some of) you claim to agree that there needs to be a dialogue about these issues and then in the same breath, run as far as you can to avoid having a real discussion about corporate racial inequity.

it's also interesting how some of you criticize Wallis here for NOT giving a "leftist" solution to the problem. seems he can't win - if he does offer a progressive solution, you yell "democratic shill!", and if he doesn't, you demand to know what he proposes.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

If economic hardship was causing fatherlessness among blacks, the illegitimacy rate would have been much higher in the early to mid-20th century. In fact, the reverse is true. Black Americans, as a group, have never had as much rights and prosperity, yet the rates of fatherlessness, sadly, are higher today than they ever were. Denying these facts and playing the regular "blame white conservatives" game might make you and liberal politicians feel better, but it's only harming the black community in the long-term.

If you spent any time in the black community you wouldn't spout that nonsense. Despite what you want to believe, we STILL don't have the same opportunities that you do as a white man -- not so much because of race but because of lack of contacts. I grew up in a well-educated, very cultured family, but in my teens and early 20s I began to see that my white schoolmates had more of a chance than I to "make it." That wasn't at all "class envy" or "class warfare," just reality.

Here's the thing: Beginning in the 1950s wealthier whites started to move to the suburbs, which for the most part were off-limits to blacks, and they took the financial clout and social networks with them in the process. I'm old enough to remember the hassle that blacks had to deal with when they tried to move into white neighborhoods; in fact, I was reared in one "white flight" area and live in another one now. Besides, when all you deal with -- in your business, at church or other social function -- are people of the same background, of course you will have that view.

Now, you seem to think that if the black poor will clean up themselves morally prosperity will result -- in fact, that was the very impetus for "compassionate conservatism." But unless that's accompanied by real opportunity, whether economic, educational or otherwise, things will never change, ever. (And government programs are and have been part of the solution -- most of them actually worked as intended.)

This in a nutshell is why I, and most blacks, have a major problem with modern conservatism -- it demands virtually nothing of conservatives, who believe that they along are entitled to run everything, but everything of people on the "other side." Reminds me of what Jesus said to the Pharisees, "You lay heavy burdens on people but lift not one finger to help them."

jesse · 2 years ago

"it must be lack of parenting skills and rap music, right? i mean, i can't do anything about that!"
--Sorry, but this is actually what you call a straw man. Not lack of "parenting skills"...lack of a parent. If you think this is not a fundamental contributor to economic hardship and crime among black Americans, then you're arguing with an abundance of social science data. This is the side of the story being neglected and/or ignored by Wallis and this study.

The question is this: is the goal to help black Americans progress in society or to make ourselves feel better and alleviate white guilt?

jesse · 2 years ago

"If you spent any time in the black community you wouldn't spout that nonsense."
--It's easier to write me off as some heartless conservative, I know, than debate my main point, which is that these data indicate that poverty and economic hardship are NOT causing illegitimacy, as you claimed they were. You can keep ignoring the data and tell me that I'm ignorant white boy if that makes you feel better. But don't think it's getting you any closer to the truth.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

The question is this: is the goal to help black Americans progress in society or to make ourselves feel better and alleviate white guilt?

The fact that you're even asking the question tells me what your answer is.

It's easier to write me off as some heartless conservative, I know, than debate my main point, which is that these data indicate that poverty and economic hardship are NOT causing illegitimacy, as you claimed they were.

I've already told you why the data do no such thing -- the correlation is far more complex than you want to believe. The point is that African-Americans in the 'hood have little or no opportunity as things stand now, and the dysfunction you see there is a result of that.

Indeed, my evangelical, theologically conservative church, which is largely white but does a lot of ministry in its inner-city neighborhood, understands this well first-hand. Some years ago, before I came there, the deacons put themselves through an exercise on trying to raise children on an annual income of less than $16,000, and it sensitized them to the real needs that such folks face. Many of those people are part of our congregation and the church thus realizes that simply "getting saved" isn't the whole enchilada. So when I say that you don't know what you're talking about, I see it literally every week.

payshun · 2 years ago

In other interestings news no $h!+.

Ok Jesse I call you ignorant because you don't understand what you are talking about. I am a black man and I have a sister. She's pregnant and not marrying the baby's father. He is a good father and takes excellent care of his first son. Now he will add another child to the mix. Is that the traditional American family model? No.

But it is what it is. He is there working his butt off to make time for his children. I am not saying that there is not a lack of positive black male role models. We need more. No argument there but if you think that fatherlessness is the main contributing factor to this then you really are unaware and it has nothing to do w/ you being white or even being conservative (but that doesn't help much.) The truth is that fatherlessness has been a problem in the black community for nearly 200 years. This is not new or original. It has not gotten better and in some circles only worse.

I would highly recommend you learning about our shared history and the rates of "fatherlessness" during slavery and then examining what's happening now. It would shed some light on this most complex issue.

p

there's the rub · 2 years ago

"If you think this is not a fundamental contributor to economic hardship and crime among black Americans, then you're arguing with an abundance of social science data. This is the side of the story being neglected and/or ignored by Wallis and this study."

nobody is saying there are no social aspects of minority poverty - but is it the major CAUSE, or a SYMPTOM which then feeds back and helps to perpetuate inequity? i'd argue the latter. the straw man is in your insistence that one group's social ills are the root cause of their inequality (which is actually more of a darwinian argument than a christian one), as opposed to, oh, i don't know, slavery, for starters.

"In fact, the reverse is true. Black Americans, as a group, have never had as much rights and prosperity, yet the rates of fatherlessness, sadly, are higher today than they ever were. "

which is precisely why the old conservative "level playing field" free market approach is not a solution. it completely ignores the historically uneven playing field that has left some at a major disadvantage in our "free" economy.

most conservatives know this, which is why race and poverty discussions always turn into rants about personal values, taxes and the old boogeyman, big government. yeah, personal values are important, but are they the chicken or the egg?

generations spent living in poverty tends to tear families apart and as you rightly point out, a broken family is not a great place to start out on the economic ladder.

payshun · 2 years ago

I guess to back this up further before I head off to work "fatherlessness" is a symptom of something much greater, something conservatives have the hardest time acknowledging and no I am not talking about racism. (Even though that is a factor as well)

Emasculinaztion is the bigger issue. It's a global problem. Men are taught to devalue themselves and to not connect to their children leaving kids w/ fathers w/o positive influences. How many white wealthy kids have absentee fathers? I know a few. I know a few people w/ sever father issues and it has to do w/ people not being taught to value themselves or the their families. I wish more conservatives took up that cause instead of hitting the symptom of the problem.

p

jesse · 2 years ago

Payshun and Rick,
Both your posts ignore my point about the causal direction of fatherlessness and poverty and how fatherlessness has increased dramatically among black Americans over the past 30-40 years (despite the fact that overall income has increased). Anecdotes can support any position. I'm more interested in data.

"group's social ills are the root cause of their inequality (which is actually more of a darwinian argument than a christian one), as opposed to, oh, i don't know, slavery, for starters."
--I won't argue with the fact that slavery has caused many of the problems in the black community today. However, you have not provided any data to persuade me that fatherlessness and illegitimacy is not THE major (or A major) contributor to poverty among blacks at present. It is also worth noting that black families in the early and mid 20th century were more likely to be led by two parents than those today.

You do realize that no less than Bill Clinton agreed with me about fatherlessness: he said illegitimacy was the #1 domestic problem in the US.

BTW, I did grow up in New Orleans in a racially diverse environment. My job involves interaction with low-income blacks everyday. So, I'm not as sheltered as you think.

Peace.

jesse · 2 years ago

"Ok Jesse I call you ignorant because you don't understand what you are talking about. I am a black man and I have a sister. She's pregnant and not marrying the baby's father. He is a good father and takes excellent care of his first son. Now he will add another child to the mix. Is that the traditional American family model? No.

But it is what it is. He is there working his butt off to make time for his children. I am not saying that there is not a lack of positive black male role models. We need more. No argument there but if you think that fatherlessness is the main contributing factor to this then you really are unaware and it has nothing to do w/ you being white or even being conservative (but that doesn't help much.) The truth is that fatherlessness has been a problem in the black community for nearly 200 years. This is not new or original. It has not gotten better and in some circles only worse.

I would highly recommend you learning about our shared history and the rates of "fatherlessness" during slavery and then examining what's happening now. It would shed some light on this most complex issue."
--Payshun, I agree that the causes of fatherlessness and irresponsible men are complex (though I'd argue that the data show fatherlessness has increased dramatically recently among black americans). But their effects are actually very simple to understand. A single mother is going to have a very difficult time supporting and raising a family. I wish your sister well.

Moderatelad · 2 years ago

between African American and white families

Maybe we need to define what is a 'family' so that we have level ground when we are talking. There are many reasons for this difference but we need to look at the 'make-up' of the family that we are talking about as that has a direct impact on the results.

Blessings -
.

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

it's also interesting how some of you criticize Wallis here for NOT giving a "leftist" solution to the problem

Methinks posted


Interesting you assumed the solution is a leftuist solution ? Can not solutions be solutions ? Say having a Mom and dad combining to take care of you is a conservative position ? I would think many people of color who vote democrate and are quite liberal have lived that way . Me thinks sometimes you don't.

P said here
Ok Jesse I call you ignorant because you don't understand what you are talking about. I am a black man and I have a sister. She's pregnant and not marrying the baby's father. He is a good father and takes excellent care of his first son. Now he will add another child to the mix. Is that the traditional American family model? No.



P you are quite knowledgable of African American history and cultural reasons for many situations . And actually I have learned from your knowledge , because not knowing is not ignorance . You show ignorance here my friend .


Sometimes I think you are standing right next to a tree and can not see the forest as they say . Would you speak out against the belief that many had for people of color not having wages comparable to their white co workers who were doing the same job ? Of course not , but defendibng the status quo of consequences for family separations because of other past sins makes no sense at all . Because their is a reason for detrimental behaviors , does not mean those behaviors are not still detrimental .



Because of cultural crap African Americans had to live through it appears you wish just to leave the family aspect alone as is , disintegrated . If I was a Klan member , I would agree . I see this belief of the family also in the white community , in fact social science experts , the liberal ones as well , will never say its an African American problem , right now its more prevalent in that community , but its going and growing all over . So all the reasons are not what you state either . Right ? White families are breaking up , separating , and their off spring are statistically worse off then those Mom and Dads who stick together . This is not based on I am better then you , religious conservatives have a divorce rate equal to the national average , it effects all of us . For the worse .

But your sister would be better off with a partner united in life , by a spirtual and moral bond to help one another and support the children together . Because she chose not to is of course possibly the better avenue for "her" to take.
Of course there are individual circumstances , don't get bogged down there . But can you not see why two together would be better . I don't get why that is such a hard concept , its not the cure all , it only is a strong help for families .

How we look at our Heavenly Father sometimes is effected by our personal relationships with our Father by many people . If he was out of the picture , some people believe God is not as personal also . If you have a loving Mother , you tend to grow up with the belief you can be loved . Right ? I just took my 25 year old to a SeaHawk Monday Night football game . First one I attended since 1982 . What a hoot , we sreamed our heads off . You know , my Dad has been dead sine 1982 , I wished he was there with us . I was having so much fun with my 25 year old son , I just wish he was there to share it too . I think those kinds of things matter in our lives . I think it helps us , and the belief of family being important when you have loyal family members is a GREAT HELP in your life .

I think not knowing what I am talking about makes you think less of Jesse when he doing everything in his heart to reach out to you . And you don't get it . He is not ignorant , he has had the gift of Knowing God is involved in his life and family . That is very very precious , and something that he wants for all .

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Amen Krazy
Someone set out a racial problem and every white guy starts a Bart Simpson routine, "I didn't do it. No one saw me do it. You can't prove I did it."

Why not just listen. How is it that the stats listed by Nuttshell just seem to be ignored? Can't anybody, just one time stop and think what it would be like if that many white kids were incarcerated? Is that a ethnic dynamic made to ruin families, or what?
Any white guy that wants to say Rap music's treatment of women is to blame needs to watch either Desperate or OC Housewives and point the same finger at all white TV watchers for divorce rates among white families. I do not like Rap either, (and I do not watch housewives) but to blame the situation on gangsterism is
just more hidden racism
I am also always amazed at how these discussions only seem to center on Black vs White and there is no mention of Latinos.
Stop the defending your/our innocence. Start hearing the pain. Stop trying to make it seem that Caucasians are the ones being hurt. That is just a huge lie. Stop crowing about how you weren't "given anything" and had to earn it. I think God must see that as a very unthankful attitude. "To whom much is given, much is required." If that seems like someone is peeing in your Wheaties, I am sorry, but you will have to take it up with the author

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

Both your posts ignore my point about the causal direction of fatherlessness and poverty and how fatherlessness has increased dramatically among black Americans over the past 30-40 years (despite the fact that overall income has increased). Anecdotes can support any position. I'm more interested in data.

Data mean nothing without the history behind them, and in fact you have completely turned things around to make them mean something completely different than reality -- because the "anecdotes" don't support your position.

BTW, I did grow up in New Orleans in a racially diverse environment. My job involves interaction with low-income blacks everyday. So, I'm not as sheltered as you think.

Are they your neighbors? Do you worship with them? Do you eat at each other's homes? Do your kids play together? And, as such, do you talk frankly about racial issues and the resultant divergent views without being offended? If not, your "knowing blacks" don't mean a thing. Another conservative poster talked glowingly on another thread about his so-called friendship with a black man, but it turns out he still doesn't know a thing about his views on race and racism.

You do realize that no less than Bill Clinton agreed with me about fatherlessness: he said illegitimacy was the #1 domestic problem in the US.

Even so, Clinton knows that "moral reform" isn't the only answer -- that's why he believed in government programs that actually help people effectively (and, in fact, most do). It's no accident that he has solid African-American support.

jesse · 2 years ago

"Data mean nothing without the history behind them, and in fact you have completely turned things around to make them mean something completely different than reality -- because the "anecdotes" don't support your position."
--I don't understand what you're arguing here. You stated previously that poverty causes illegitimacy rather than vice versa. I gave you data showing that this is untrue. Your anecdote didn't say anything about my position, which is that illegitimacy is one of the major contributors to poverty.

I'd like to think that maybe we're arguing past each other. I strongly believe you need opportunities, too, which is why I support improving education and having economic policies that create jobs. I just also know that illegitimacy is a big problem. Bill Clinton and Marc Morial agree with me. You seem to have a different position than Clinton, Morial, and myself.

"Even so, Clinton knows that "moral reform" isn't the only answer -- that's why he believed in government programs that actually help people effectively (and, in fact, most do)."
--I never said moral reform was the only answer. But you're still ignoring the important point Clinton agrees with me on--that illegitimacy is the biggest domestic problem in the US and (more specifically) among black Americans today.

kevin s. · 2 years ago

"so, neocons, there's no corporate racism against minorities, there's a massive liberal conspiracy against the white man, and poverty in the black community is their own fault?"

Nobody said this.

"straw men, straw men, straw men..."

Other than the above, who crafted a straw man argument?

"At least they're somewhat involved in addressing the issue, which is far more than I can say for you."

No they're not. They simply have stong opinions about how one should vote on certain issues.

"Data mean nothing without the history behind them,"

The data cited by Jesse document a historical trend.

"because the "anecdotes" don't support your position."

My father is white. He is in prison. What does that prove? Nothing, because the anecdote is not representative of an overall trend.

"I am also always amazed at how these discussions only seem to center on Black vs White and there is no mention of Latinos. "

Well, Wallis didn't discuss Latinos, which is why we haven't, but let's go ahead and discuss Latinos, who have experienced greater levels of economic success in spite of frequent language barriers. 36% of hispanic children grow up in single-parent households, versus 65% of black children. So what is your point?

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

"Can't anybody, just one time stop and think what it would be like if that many white kids were incarcerated? "
anom said

Huh ? Would you not speak to white kids breaking laws also ? Don't you realize that statistics say the number of white kids breaking laws goes up when there is only one parent in the house , that number of reported child molestation , higher drop out rates , and such all go up with white kids and only one parent .



"Is that a ethnic dynamic made to ruin families, or what?"
anom said

Huh ? Are you serious ? Are you saying then kids breaking laws and being arrested is something that is wrong , or are you saying we should allow kids to break laws . Is it good that most African children have a better chance ot having a police record then a HS diploma in some cities ? What's your solution ? Don't arrest them ? Better programs , Ok lets hear about them .


"Any white guy that wants to say Rap music's treatment of women is to blame needs to watch either Desperate or OC Housewives and point the same finger at all white TV watchers for divorce rates among white families."
anom said


What ? I
In fact I know many leftists who talk about how TV has hurt our culture for a various of other reasons . The main difference here is when someone says glorifying having children out of wedlock like Conservative Quail awkwardly said , he got slapped on the hands for saying it and offending single Mothers . , He was just stupid . Because a consistent view is shared with all people and races in the Christian Community that God;s Plan and desire for us is to be protected and loved by our Mom and Dad , its now racist by your standards . Nope ,





"I do not like Rap either, (and I do not watch housewives) but to blame the situation on gangsterism is
just more hidden racism"
anom said

Singing about women who are only good for spreading their legs apart is not suppose to be criticized ? . Speaking about beating the crap out of homosexuals is just artistic expression , if a conservative stated this you would be claiming it to be a Hate Crime . To say it is dis respectfull to women is racist . Good point ?
Glorifying drug usage from the music I use to listen to was not encourgaging a life style and belief system harmful to people ? Uhh ? Is that racist because I am white and the groups like Zepplin and such promoted free sex and drugs I consider wrong now ? You are making no sense ..


I am also always amazed at how these discussions only seem to center on Black vs White and there is no mention of Latinos.
anom said


Huh ? What about Pacific Inlanders , Native Americans , New York Yankee fans , why are you leaving other groups out , are you racist ?
Get over yourself .


Stop the defending your/our innocence. Start hearing the pain. Stop trying to make it seem that Caucasians are the ones being hurt.
anom said

What on earth are you talking about , Gods people are being hurt . Children are being brought up without a Mommy and Daddy . That is racist ? Thats love of God and his people , and its trumps your views every second of the day .



That is just a huge lie. Stop crowing about how you weren't "given anything" and had to earn it.

anom said

Huh ? I was given much from my Mom and dad . Thank God I had one who joined together to make a life together and over come the pain and obstacles in their life . Your right , they were white and had a hard enough time as it was getting through the depression and such , can't imagin a kid of color growing up with a Dad not being there to help him out . Again , thats not racism , thats love .





I think God must see that as a very unthankful attitude. "To whom much is given, much is required." If that seems like someone is peeing in your Wheaties, I am sorry, but you will have to take it up with the author

anom said


Already have , He is no respecter of people , or political parties ... He also speaks much about this subject in a book full of dysfuntional families . You have reasd more then the red lettering to get a view that we are not all racist who share different views however . It would have been nice if some lefties spoke up to this type of rhetoric , talk about divisive and mean spirited .

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Mick
The thread did not say one thing about non punishment of law breakers. It did not say you could not criticize rap. It said it is not logical to blame the problems on it.
Come on Mick, stop yelling, take a deep breath and think of what was trying to be said.
Just listen for awhile

Nuttshell · 2 years ago

Okay, I give up. You white guys have all the answer for and about black people.

I'm tired of you all (jesse, mick, kevin). Yea, I said it. It's all our fault and if our men just started acting right and married their baby mama's, we would be on top of the world. I don't think it would work like that. Chicken or egg question...is it universal racism or family disintegration which is at the heart of black poverty? Of course, intact black families do better than single parent families. Could that be anymore obvious? But, do intact black families of similar education do as well as economically as white families?

In most cases, the darker the skin, the poorer the family. See India for the non-black example. It is a heart/soul condition of fallen man. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it because it is a fact that I cannot change. It's a reality I deal with but to focus on it, would drive me mad. For black men, it's 10x worse. It is emasculating and the whole issue is terribly complex. To really understand the problem and all its complexities, you have to peel back each layer of the onion.

Jesse in particular wants only to deal in "facts". I just recently had an insight about Kevin and most neo-cons. Kevin rarely enters a dialogue where he doesn't mention about his difficult family dynamics and how no one ever gave him anything. It's his chip and he carries it everywhere. I suspect he wasn't given alot of sympathy or compassion. He has struggled and "succeeded" without the benefit of much assistance. He and his ilk don't understand nor are they willing (much) to sympathize or have compassion for others. They figure, if they could get as far as they did without others, everyone else should take a page from their book (to borrow the much-worn cliche). They are truly libertarians at heart. I can respect that to a point but they totally discount white privilege. Oh, they will offer examples when they weren't offered privilege and discount that it exists. They will concede historical inequities but we are living in the 21st century and that kinda of thing isn't as prevalent any longer, and therefore, is a small factor in the discussion of black poverty. The real reason as far as they are concerned is...(wait for it)...it's THEIR CULTURE! And we (white people) aren't responsible for that!

In the last couple of weeks, I have heard some amazing things from non-black people that validate this thinking. Just yesterday, a colleague of mine was telling me about his Polish father and why he was a bigot. This same father was married to a Native American/Mexican woman. His best friend was black but the difference about John was that he was a "man" - meaning he didn't ask for handouts. My colleague went onto justify this thought pattern. His father's assumption and his assumption is that most black people are on welfare and that most people on welfare are black. I explained that no one in my extensive collection of friends, family and acquaintances is or has ever been on welfare. I can only remember meeting one black woman on welfare in my 45 years and I'm from DC.

I'll stop now. I'm now depressed.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

but let's go ahead and discuss Latinos, who have experienced greater levels of economic success in spite of frequent language barriers. 36% of hispanic children grow up in single-parent households, versus 65% of black children. So what is your point?

Posted by: kevin s

The person does not have a point , social statistics provide a link with poverty and family break downs , it goes to all races and ethnic groups , higher percentages of reported sexual molestation , crime , drugs , and all social ills that WE all as Christians would say we would not want for another to have experienced in their life .

I see people attacking others not because of what they are saying , but WHO they are saying it to . Why would anyone not want a child to have a Mom and Dad involved in a positive way in their lives .

Anonymous · 2 years ago

There are two very large elements to the wealth disparity that are never mentioned in our media, congresses or churches.

1. The lack of affordable housing and almost
nothing being done in the past thirty years
to remedy the situation for the masses.
Having to pay 50% or more of one's net income
is not affordable housing. New apartments
being built in Southern California, for example
are being called "affordable" but their rents
are $1300-1500. People who formerly made
somewhat decent wages are being stiffled by
this greed, greed, greed. People making
$10 per hour out of luck.

2. The tremendously destructive effect of
illegal immigration on our own poor is never
spoken of or discussed. Even among educated
church folk - shocking. Cheap labor and
illegals who live three families to an
apartment or 20 individuals in a home live in
horrible conditions. So do the people whom
they have displaced. Our own poor citizens.

Post WWII through the '70s these conditions
would have received much media attention.
Not so in the past thirty years.

When there were 2,000,000 of these illegal
migrants, I referred to them as "undocumented."
Now that there are 20,000,000, I feel less
charitable knowing the results of "the whole
world being at our doorstep" - and business
people clamoring for more to be let in.

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

Okay, I give up. You white guys have all the answer for and about black people.

I'm tired of you all (jesse, mick, kevin). Yea, I said it. It's all our fault and if our men just started acting right and married their baby mama's

Posted by: Nuttshell |

What a hoot , a little stereotyping here Nuttshell .I have been married 19 years . Even waited till my wedding night for my wife . We brought up five children together . Sounds like the stereotype that has no concept of what you are talking about huh ?


The deal is I have had three children from three different women . Been a single Father , and crap it sucked . I worked my butt off . My kids all have suffered consequences for these choices I was involved with in making them , , how can any person say our children do not have a different perspective on so many issues when one parent is not there , and different role models come in and out of the home .

. I can give many excuses about why the women who Mothered my children stayed away and it was NOT MY FAULT .. Yeah right , what happened to my kids had nothing to do with me .
BITE ME !! The only Fault I can be responsible for was my particpation for , and no I am not going to blame different races , different beliefs , the fact I was not a Christian , or because the sun got in my eyes and I dropped the ball .

I did the sticking around , the doctor stuff , they went to the party . Of course I was not accountable ? Yeah right , I can make a 1000 excuses why my kids had no Mom . Some sound better then others . I have never used racism , sorry but that just goes beyond even my self righteous positions .

Ever have to hold a kid because they were balling their eyes out because they forgot what their Mother looked like ? Thats a whitey moment I guess . I suggest to you butt head it has nothing to do with race .

Make it a racial problem , right .
You have not experienced the Love of Christ have you ? To do so much wrong in your life and be loved soooooo much anyway .

So Bibically speaking , stick in your ear , you have no concept what is being spoken to here , and the need for Moms and Dads to be considered PLAN A . I am more guilty of not following the importance of a Mom and Dad then anyone on this flipping blog . I must hate white people . What a KROK !

,

kevin s. · 2 years ago

"Okay, I give up. You white guys have all the answer for and about black people."

I'm not going to simply acquiesce to supporting policy that is based on flawed assumptions that disregard evidence. I don't have all the answers, but simply saying a portion of the discussion is off limits doesn't fly with me.

"It's all our fault and if our men just started acting right and married their baby mama's, we would be on top of the world. I don't think it would work like that. "

If by acting right, you mean marrying the mother of your child, then I largely agree. You wouldn't be on top of the world (that is not the goal), but it would make a substantial difference in terms of economic equality across racial lines.

If you don't think it would work like that, can you please provide some evidence that it wouldn't?

"But, do intact black families of similar education do as well as economically as white families?"

When adjusting for college education, the ratio is somewhere around 90 cents on the dollar amongst college graduates. However, black students are less likely to major in business, or acquire an advanced degree (this trend is changing), so it isn't an apples to apples comparison. In the science and engineering fields, for example, the earnings are the same.

"Kevin rarely enters a dialogue where he doesn't mention about his difficult family dynamics and how no one ever gave him anything."

That isn't true. I have mentioned it only a handful of times, usually in response to being accused of being a privileged white male. I only mentioned here to point out how irrelevant anecdotal evidence is to the discussion.

You don't want to deal in facts, which is your perogative. But when it comes to formuating policy, I am going to insist that facts take the day over emotions and personal experiences. That is part and parcel of having a dialogue.

" He has struggled and "succeeded" without the benefit of much assistance. He and his ilk don't understand nor are they willing (much) to sympathize or have compassion for others."

The second point doesn't follow from the first. You are merely asserting that it is so. I don't think identifying systemic issues constitutes compassion anyway.

"They are truly libertarians at heart."

I'm not, no.

"I can respect that to a point but they totally discount white privilege."

Not totally, but it is not as impactful as you make it out to be. You can argue that, because it once existed, certaing ethnicities bear the burden, but that is not the same as white privilege.

But I think the relevant concession here is that the facts are not on your side. On this we agree.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

I don't understand what you're arguing here. You stated previously that poverty causes illegitimacy rather than vice versa. I gave you data showing that this is untrue.

Again, jesse, you did no such thing -- you interpreted the data according to your preconceived agenda, and that's why your analysis falls short. Given more exhaustive studies that have been done, it is simply more accurate to say that lack of opportunity will eventually produce illegitimacy (but not directly). Looking at things in another way will change not only the solutions but the very question to be addressed. As I mentioned, people who talk only about "moral reform" don't look at the overall picture. Basically, even if illegitimacy in the black community were to disappear overnight many would still be poor and we'll be right back where we started. That's why your conclusions represent so much nonsense.

"At least they're somewhat involved in addressing the issue, which is far more than I can say for you."
No they're not. They simply have stong opinions about how one should vote on certain issues.

Oh, yes, they are -- some of them actually helped me to get through school in the 1990s. And they did the same for a lot of people.

Well, Wallis didn't discuss Latinos, which is why we haven't, but let's go ahead and discuss Latinos, who have experienced greater levels of economic success in spite of frequent language barriers. 36% of hispanic children grow up in single-parent households, versus 65% of black children. So what is your point?

Latinos are far, far more diverse culturally and ideologically than blacks, for openers, and represent a swing constituency. You have Mexicans, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Nicaraguans ... and how does this then have anything to do with the question at hand?

He is no respecter of people, or political parties ... He also speaks much about this subject in a book full of dysfuntional families. You have reasd more then the red lettering to get a view that we are not all racist who share different views however. It would have been nice if some lefties spoke up to this type of rhetoric, talk about divisive and mean spirited.

You're one to talk about being "mean-spirited." The problem is not the rhetoric; you just don't want to address the issue because it doesn't jibe with your ideology. I don't have a problem with different views if they're based on valid, provable facts that do not offer an alternative conclusion. However, jesse has offered a thesis, some of us shot it down and he still wants to believe what he says. That's no way to have a conversation.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

You don't want to deal in facts, which is your perogative. But when it comes to formuating policy, I am going to insist that facts take the day over emotions and personal experiences. That is part and parcel of having a dialogue.

Coming from you, that's the pot calling the kettle black.

jesse · 2 years ago

"Again, jesse, you did no such thing -- you interpreted the data according to your preconceived agenda, and that's why your analysis falls short. Given more exhaustive studies that have been done, it is simply more accurate to say that lack of opportunity will eventually produce illegitimacy (but not directly)."
--I'd be really interested to see these studies. Because history tells us that blacks were given rights and opportunities in 1965, and illegitimacy for whatever reason has skyrocketed since then (from around 20% at the early part of the century to nearly 70% today).

Regardless of the reasons for illegitimacy in the black community today (and I do believe slavery and past oppression were major contributors), it is undoubtedly a major cause of poverty at present. And I have Bill Clinton, Marc Morial, and other liberals on my side. You can argue with them, with social science research, and whomever else.

"However, jesse has offered a thesis, some of us shot it down and he still wants to believe what he says. That's no way to have a conversation."
--Yes, I agree that when I present facts and you present insults, ad hominem attacks, and GBA games, that's no way to have a conversation.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

The problem is not the rhetoric; you just don't want to address the issue because it doesn't jibe with your ideology.
Rick Said


No Rick , you can't get past your racial idealogy based on race rather then God and common sense . Your use of promoting the worse possible motives for another opinion is your bread and butter .


"I don't have a problem with different views if they're based on valid, provable facts that do not offer an alternative conclusion."
Rick Said

C an you name one here that would support this statement of yours . In fact many people you have stated here you do not respect who are conservaive , and have stated the most abusive and derogotary motives of their belief systems .
So name someone here who you respect their views that differ with yours . I find people respect mind quite often that you, even here which makes give and take quite enjoyable . I have a distatse for bullies , cyber or those who pretend Loving Christ and enjoy hating Christians who differ .
. You do this often and represent it as just confronting conservative lys . So name some people on this blog who are conservative that will say they have found you respectfull of their views ? Just one ?



However, jesse has offered a thesis, some of us shot it down and he still wants to believe what he says. That's no way to have a conversation.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin


No one shot it down , you are simply lying . No one convinced the other of their view , you however claim victory because of your superior racial idealogy . In fatc when facts show white or any other race having problems in single parent homes you can not address it , you ignore it .




You can not stand when your views are confronted with facts that show people who have children without both parents having more social problems and increased poverty . It has nothing to do with race , its based on common sense and facts . It hurts kids to not have a Mom and dad , you can scream racism all you want , the fact of the matter is kids are worse off . You care more about color then children . shame shame

Anonymous · 2 years ago

stop yelling, take a deep breath and think of what was trying to be said.
Just listen for awhile


You're one to talk about being "mean-spirited."

Posted by: Rick Nowlin

Besides, the conservatives have always started race wars (it wasn't the left that fought for civil rights for minorities, for example). And folks still wonder why blacks don't vote conservative.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin


Coming from you, that's the pot calling the kettle black.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin

Another conservative poster talked glowingly on another thread about his so-called friendship with a black man, but it turns out he still doesn't know a thing about his views on race and racism.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

Yes, I agree that when I present facts and you present insults, ad hominem attacks, and GBA games, that's no way to have a conversation.

jesse -- How many times do I have to tell you: YOUR "FACTS" DON'T ADD UP! Any of those "liberals" you quote will tell you exactly what I'm saying, especially since they're closer to the ground than you (and perhaps even I)! You are taking those stats completely out of context, and that is not at all my problem.

No one shot it down, you are simply lying. No one convinced the other of their view, you however claim victory because of your superior racial idealogy. In fatc when facts show white or any other race having problems in single parent homes you can not address it, you ignore it.

That's not the issue. As I mentioned, even if illegitimacy were to disappear overnight the problem with black poverty would not disappear.

Let's go back to what I said in the beginning because we got seriously sidetracked. Blacks are not major employers. Most blacks do not have the money to play the stock market and build wealth that way (Jesse Jackson was talking about that way back in the 1970s -- it was one of the first times I'd ever heard of him). Blacks generally do not benefit from tax cuts geared toward the wealthy because they do not have those kind of funds. A lot of that is because blacks often do not have the access as part of the "network" to do these things -- they don't know the right people; they don't live in the "right" neighborhood etc., and these also are major factors in black income being lower. What these have to do with illegitimacy in the 'hood is beyond me.

Now, can we have a real conversation instead of pointless attacks and irrelvancies?

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

Mick said


In fatc when facts show white or any other race having problems in single parent homes you can not address it, you ignore it.

Rick then said
"That's not the issue. As I mentioned, even if illegitimacy were to disappear overnight the problem with black poverty would not disappear"


It is the issue , homes of all races suffer when certain conditions such as single parents exist .
It not based on race , it is magnified by racial discrimination of course , you have my ears and respect for your knowledge here , I will listen .

But you can't get past the logical understanding that people who are unified together , especially when the Holy Spirit is in the House and between them , then instead of two strings , there is three and its like a rope . Is not a rope stronger then one string alone ? You have a better chance of sticking it in the ear to poverty then , and overcoming racial discrimination . I don't see why you feel you have to attack on this , you would think it would be common ground .

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Mick
Could you not hear Nuttshell? I think she would justifiably use your own words, "I don't see why you feel you have to attack on this"

Anonymous · 2 years ago

The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

end quote~

ADH · 2 years ago

oh, the last quote comment was by me. Just wanted to share a favorite that stirs my heart.

payshun · 2 years ago

Mick said:
But your sister would be better off with a partner united in life , by a spirtual and moral bond to help one another and support the children together . Because she chose not to is of course possibly the better avenue for "her" to take.
Of course there are individual circumstances , don't get bogged down there . But can you not see why two together would be better . I don't get why that is such a hard concept , its not the cure all , it only is a strong help for families .

Me:
That's not reality and it would not be better for her to be united w/ someone she doesn't love that will lead to divorce. That's worse. It's better to be in a relationship w/ two loving parents that are committed for the best of the child than to be in a relaitonship where the child learns to live in apathy, bitterness and other issues.

Just like you think I can't see the forest for the trees I think you don't see the trees. Honestly I don't think you seem to understand that the two parent household doesn't hold up for everyone and that there are other options that can lead to healthy, fully matured black children.

I ought to know. I grew up in one. My father was gone for most of my life because of work (he was in the military.) That meant my mom raised me and because of that I learned a lot. So let's try and stay away from ignoring the role of mothers and how much they do work to protect and mature their kids. My sister's choice is the best one for her. It's not fair or accurate for you or anyone to suggest otherwise.

Mick also said:
Because of cultural crap African Americans had to live through it appears you wish just to leave the family aspect alone as is , disintegrated . If I was a Klan member , I would agree . I see this belief of the family also in the white community , in fact social science experts , the liberal ones as well , will never say its an African American problem , right now its more prevalent in that community , but its going and growing all over . So all the reasons are not what you state either . Right ? White families are breaking up , separating , and their off spring are statistically worse off then those Mom and Dads who stick together . This is not based on I am better then you , religious conservatives have a divorce rate equal to the national average , it effects all of us . For the worse .

Me:
This is bs. God I wish I could cuss here. Mick what you are saying is ridiculous. I have never said or made it a point at leaving the family unit disentegrated. i have spent my entire life learning to integrate and unite families so again your point is a mute one. Tieing people that don't love each other into a crappy marriage won't work it will only make things worse.

Instead their are other options like what my sister is doing. The father is a great father and will be to the child. I am here and will be a great uncle and role model. There are other men that are going to be great too. That's what family looks like nowadays and the sooner you stop trying to fit people into a box that doesn't work for them the sooner this conversation can go forward.

You also said:
Because their is a reason for detrimental behaviors , does not mean those behaviors are not still detrimental .

Me:
Do you realize how foolish that statement is. Now that you have said these behaviors are detrimental now what? What will your acknowledgement provide? How will it change things? Can it show grace? Can it show love? Can it empower to create what you want.

The answer to the last one is no. It can't. My way can because it seeks to empower the woman and the man to deal w/ the reality of their situation. It doesn't condone it but it doesn't judge it either. Why are you so focused on the behavior at the expense of learning to be more gracious?

p

jesse · 2 years ago

"That's not the issue. As I mentioned, even if illegitimacy were to disappear overnight the problem with black poverty would not disappear."
--No one said it would disappear. We just said it would be substantially reduced if all children were born into two parent homes. To deny this is to deny decades of social science research and to deny the basic math of having another income-earner/nurturer/ disciplinarian around who also happens to be biologically related to your children (and is statistically less likely to abuse them). We're not having an honest conversation if you deny this. Are you??

Again, just in case we're arguing past each other. I believe PAST oppression/lack of opportunity is one of the major contributors to black illegitimacy today, though CURRENT lack of opportunity is only a small contributor. Lack of opportunity may lead to fatherlessness in a minority of cases, though in general illegitimacy and fatherlessness/male abandonment are caused by either one or two people behaving irresponsibly (with sex, with men not taking responsibility for their family, etc.). As far as poverty and illegitimacy goes, the causal relationship is primarily in one direction, with illegitimacy leading to poverty, crime, and many other negative indices. However, the direction of this relationship doesn't have to be completely one way. It is rare that these types of behavioral relationships are 100% uni-directional. It is also helpful, however, to examine the directions in which they are primarily pointing.

Anyways, I think I'm beating a dead horse at this point.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

To deny this is to deny decades of social science research and to deny the basic math of having another income-earner/nurturer/ disciplinarian around who also happens to be biologically related to your children (and is statistically less likely to abuse them).

In saying this, you reinforced one of the points I tried to make earlier. In the 'hood, there are very few, if any, men available who can or will do that, and that has to do with lack of access to educational or economic resources. Believe me, the women understand this, which is why they don't see marriage as a solution.

jesse · 2 years ago

"In saying this, you reinforced one of the points I tried to make earlier. In the 'hood, there are very few, if any, men available who can or will do that, and that has to do with lack of access to educational or economic resources."
--Why, then, did they stick around in the early to mid-20th century, when illegitimacy and fatherlessness rates were low and blacks had far fewer rights and opportunities? It seems that if you are trying to establish the causal relationship in the direction you're proposing (current lack of opportunities causing current fatherlessness), you must explain these historical data. Why do you think fathers were sticking around prior to 1965?

Mind you, as Mick pointed out earlier, the effects of fatherlessness on poverty, crime, etc. are similar for other ethnicities, as well. It comes as no surprise that they would have similar effects among the black community.

jesse · 2 years ago

BTW, I apologize to Rick, Payshun, and anyone else here if I was insensitive in any of my previous posts. I am a social science researcher by trade, so I can sometimes become too passionate about data and arguments without being sensitive to others' feelings and life experiences that have shaped their opinions. I realize that when some of my arguments are made, all that some people hear is condemnation. But that is not my intent. I truly believe the problems I am raising are essential to overcome if there is to be substantial progress among black Americans. I also believe that leaders have been neglectful in addressing these problems.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

Why, then, did they stick around in the early to mid-20th century, when illegitimacy and fatherlessness rates were low and blacks had far fewer rights and opportunities? It seems that if you are trying to establish the causal relationship in the direction you're proposing (current lack of opportunities causing current fatherlessness), you must explain these historical data. Why do you think fathers were sticking around prior to 1965?

In truth, however, divorce (but also remarriage) was fairly common in the black community back in the day -- my own father's parents split in or around 1936 and I now know that wasn't unheard of.

That said, to answer your question the biggest historical change was suburbanization, which removed much of the economic clout from major cities (which is why men often have trouble finding work); that led directly to the crumbling of community in large part because people cannot afford to, say, buy homes, homeownership being a keystone of community stability. My theme here is that even love costs money.

justintime · 2 years ago

While we argue about racism and other causes of economic disparity between black and white families, we ignore the massive transfer of wealth from America's middle classes to the corporate elite, which has been accelerating in recent years.
American families, white and black, are being reduced to serfdom in the new corporate feudalism.
The curtain is closing on the American dream.
And what about the widening gap between rich and poor around the planet?
What do you think is the cause behind this?
Can you say corporate elite?

ginab · 2 years ago

I have to address the fact that we're discussing fatherlessness as a racial issue and perhaps a moral issue, but really skipping past the economics of it in a real sense.

But let's start with this. White privilege is not a "historical" concept. It is still very real, very damaging and very much ignored/disputed by those who can't imagine that anyone else's life is much different from their own.

Data show that blacks are treated differently in every arena: housing, justice (meaning arrests and sentencing), child protective services, education, corporate, credit, etc. Politicians still raise the specter of the black man to scare voters into pulling the right lever. Hell, a black man can't catch a cab in some major cities.

Racism exists, both subtly and overtly. Trying to parse the "What's wrong with black people?" issue without starting there is ridiculous. And please let's stop comparing a race that has had its inferiority and status as chattel codified into law, to others who scrambled to this country to try to make a better life for themselves and their families.

That said: Given the very real obstacles blacks face, it is imperative that we as black people take a long hard look at the consequences of having children in the absence of economic opportunity. Not to do so speaks of a selfishness and immaturity that makes one unsuitable for parenting.

Do we want better for our children than we've had? Do we understand that the networks we need to build to advance economically come from community, and community comes from family? We won't excel as a race until family and community become the priority.

Let's start teaching the economics of poverty and prosperity to our children early on, and maybe throw in some of the responsibility for the greater good that any minority race needs to compete.

Changing racists (especially the unwitting ones) to realists with a heart of Christ is a slow, often unproductive process. We should continue to work at it, and we should push for change in every arena to address the inequities in our society. Including demanding that the government that sanctioned slavery own up to its responsibility to ease the burdens it created.

In the meantime, we need to identify the obstacles to success in our own culture with ruthless honesty, and take the painful steps to correct them. The single parent family isn't the only obstacle, but it is big enough not to be dismissed. The terms "baby mama" and "baby daddy" reduce us to breeding stock not much different than the chattel we were considered to be not so long ago. Our children deserve better. Our race deserves better.

Nuttshell · 2 years ago

Mick,

What's with the name calling (butthead)? Really? Is that what this discussion has been reduced to? Absolutely, I have been touched by the love of God. December marks 19 years walking with God. God has granted me so much hope when I truly thought I would never hope again. He lifts my chin when I feel defeated. In spite of the Michael Jordans, Beyonces, Halle Berrys, Tiger Woods, etc., it is not always easy to ignore how much the world looks down on us and condemns us. When you can be pulled over for driving while black or be followed anytime you enter a store, that kind of treatment can wear people down. I try to encourage my brothers and sisters everyday with the love of Jesus but I do recognize that sometimes the love of Jesus can't always make us immune to the slights and daggers.

As I said before, this whole subject is very complex and multi-faceted. Fact is, we live in a fallen world and the heart of man is evil. Consigning a group of people (whatever that group is), and accepting that situation, to the bottom rung based upon their physical features is a heart problem. Even if all black families were intact, I dare say we would still be below white people economically. The 90% figure that Kevin mentioned, is that fair enough? Why should it be? I am a black woman of above average intelligence who has a M.S. degree in Information Systems. I attended business school for both undergrad and grad school from Georgetown. I am well read and fairly well traveled. I've been a middle manager for the past 10 years and yet I'm frustrated. I'm ambitious and assertive. I believe in working hard as every generation before did. And yet, all the people who have passed me by in my agency have much less experience and a lot less education. Sadly, at this time, I work for a man who seems to be uncomfortable with people of color. I don't dwell on it because all it will do is make me bitter. I don't hate any group of people (or anyone for that matter). I do think that your white privilege makes it difficult to really see things beyond your world experience. Full disclosure: my husband has a white mother and a Hispanic father.

Let's dialogue in love. Have compassion for others especially when they pour out their hearts.

May the grace of God reside in you.

Sincerely,

Shelley Nuttall Martinez aka "Nuttshell"

kevin s. · 2 years ago

"Given more exhaustive studies that have been done, it is simply more accurate to say that lack of opportunity will eventually produce illegitimacy (but not directly). "

Can you point to the studies that are "more exhaustive"? Because I don't see how you could interpret a study citing inverse corrolation between poverty and fatherlessness over the last four decades, and draw any conclusion other than the one Jesse has drawn.

"Latinos are far, far more diverse culturally and ideologically than blacks, for openers, and represent a swing constituency. You have Mexicans, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Nicaraguans ... and how does this then have anything to do with the question at hand?"

Nothing, really, which is why they weren't discussed in the first place, but then someone found it amazing that nobody talked about latinos, so I talked about latinos.

"Coming from you, that's the pot calling the kettle black."

Can you cite an example of where I have opted for an emotional argument in lieu of a factual argument, or is this another one of those things I do so frequently that it is impossible for you to find an example? Is this an example of your effectively shooting down an argument?

"What's with the name calling (butthead)?"

Did Mick call someone a butthead and it was deleted? I don't see it here.

" The 90% figure that Kevin mentioned, is that fair enough? Why should it be?"

That's only adjusting for one factor, education. But the point is not that there are no other factors, but that broken families, and not systemic racism, is the primary causative factor. Until we can acknowledge that reality, we cannot forge a real solution. I'm sorry that your own personal experience is so negative.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

Can you point to the studies that are "more exhaustive"? Because I don't see how you could interpret a study citing inverse corrolation between poverty and fatherlessness over the last four decades, and draw any conclusion other than the one Jesse has drawn.

Not offhand, no, but I have read numerous print accounts. Anyway, as I said, data have to be interpreted in a certain context, and in this case the data certainly do not prove jesse's case because the other factors I mention are not addressed.

...but then someone found it amazing that nobody talked about latinos, so I talked about latinos.

If you remember, the subject was blacks, not Latinos.

Can you cite an example of where I have opted for an emotional argument in lieu of a factual argument, or is this another one of those things I do so frequently that it is impossible for you to find an example?

You have done this so frequently that it would take me days to go back and find all the instances -- and even if I did show you you would deny it out of hand. In other words, as a result I have a really hard time respecting your opinion on nearly anything.

But the point is not that there are no other factors, but that broken families, and not systemic racism, is the primary causative factor.

And why do families break apart? Mostly due to finances.

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

Really? Is that what this discussion has been reduced to?
Shelley Nuttall Martinez aka "Nuttshell"

Posted by: Nuttshell


No it was reduced to this , by you .


"Okay, I give up. You white guys have all the answer for and about black people.

I'm tired of you all (jesse, mick, kevin). Yea, I said it. It's all our fault and if our men just started acting right and married their baby mama's, we would be on top of the world."

Posted by: Nuttshell

Having children out of wed lock , and blaming no one but me of the consequences was my idea .

So if you want to bring up white privildge , white supramacy , and the evils of racism all I can say even having all those evils working on my behalf , bringing up children in a single household Sucks big time . It hurts your kids .
I am responsible for that , not race .

If you want to have a discussion I am all ears , because from the examples you gave , I would think it would even be harder for a person of color , I simply do not understand why anyone would not advocate a Mom and dad being united by the Holt Spirit and fighting racism , poverty , etc and joining in together with the Lord to bring up His gifts , your children . And of course supporting those who did not , but 100 oercently advocating for God's plan . Mom and Dad .

God Bless your ability to answer in love,

Mick

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

Did Mick call someone a butthead and it was deleted? I don't see it here.

I might have , I most likely miss spelled it . I don't see any of my posts deleted though ?

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

I simply do not understand why anyone would not advocate a Mom and dad being united by the Holt Spirit and fighting racism, poverty, etc and joining in together with the Lord to bring up His gifts, your children.

You have completely missed the point. As I have repeatedly tried to point out, financial issues wreak by far the biggest havoc on families of all colors, cultures and classes, and no amount of moral/spiritual training will change that -- in the black community it's just a little more obvious. In other words, help change the economics and the problem largely will be ameliorated -- but that costs resources.

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

Because their is a reason for detrimental behaviors , does not mean those behaviors are not still detrimental .
Mick said
Do you realize how foolish that statement is. Now that you have said these behaviors are detrimental now what?
P said

P I think this is one of those times having different religions cause a huge dis connect .
Doing something wrong , caused by another wrong , is still wrong . The now what is up to the individual person , we as a church can help , we as a government can try and offer poliices like Head Start and such to help , but bottom line , most of the times kids coming from families that are broken or never even together to begin with have an UPHILL CLIMB . No never give up on them , I agree .


You are missing the point , and your belief of the importance of the traditional family from past conversations is just bs to you . I don't even think we are on the same wave length here .
I can only say from my personal experience , social science experts , Christian Teachings , Muslim , and Jewish , kids are better off with a Mom and Dad that love them them , love each other , and willing to be together as a team . Somehow you believing that means not supporting the circumstances when that does not happen makes NO sense to me .



Catch you when we are discussing if we should celebrate TnaksGiving or not ? ;0)

Best episode of the Sopranos I ever saw was when the Native Americans and Tony Sopranos crowd had a big fight outside a restaurant because the Native Americans were protesting Columbus ,
Maybe not Chris Rock , but it was pretty funny .

Don · 2 years ago

I'll stop now. I'm now depressed.
Posted by: Nuttshell | November 14, 2007 7:42 PM

Nuttshell, I just read this post where you poured out your heart. I cannot imagine or the mean-spirited and downright nasty responses you got. I'm sorry you had to endure this kind of thing here. All that those who so responded have done is demonstrate that racism is still alive and well, sad to say.

May God's blessings be with you and your family.

And to those who wrote the nasty, mean-spirited replies: please re-read Nuttshell's response and ask yourself if it really deserved your despicable responses. And then ask yourself if you don't hear the voice of the Holy Spirit there.

"What's with the name calling (butthead)?"

Did Mick call someone a butthead and it was deleted? I don't see it here.
Posted by: kevin s. | November 15, 2007 12:21 PM

Ever have to hold a kid because they were balling their eyes out because they forgot what their Mother looked like ? Thats a whitey moment I guess . I suggest to you butt head it has nothing to do with race .

Make it a racial problem , right .

So Bibically speaking , stick in your ear , you have no concept what is being spoken to here , and the need for Moms and Dads to be considered PLAN A . I am more guilty of not following the importance of a Mom and Dad then anyone on this flipping blog . I must hate white people . What a KROK !
Posted by: Mick Sheldon | November 14, 2007 8:46 PM

BeliefNet monitor, Rule #9 (courtesy) states:

You agree that you will be courteous to others, even when disagreeing, and even to those whose beliefs you think are false or objectionable. When debating, express your opinion about a person's ideas, not about them personally. Do not make negative personal remarks about another's age, disability, gender, ethnicity, race, nationality, sexual orientation, intelligence, character, appearance, health, mental health, education or any other personal characteristic.

How long do we have to endure the kind of personal attacks that certain persons who post here make? I have examples going back to Oct 3 of these kinds or remarks that I just copied here. Please take appropriate action.

Peace,

payshun · 2 years ago

"Why do you think fathers were sticking around prior to 1965?"

Actually historically that's not the case. They tried to stick around and be fathers of their children and decent husbands for the first 150 years of our nation. That was not a reality for many men. Slavery was in effect so your statement doesn't really match what was going on historically. Since a family member could be sold, killed, or raped at a moments notice it was hard to form a family unit, let a lone keep relationships going from plantation to plantation.

By the 20'th century things were definitely more settled w/n the black community. In many cities and rural areas there was a cross section of class and empowerment so that family units could hold. Not only that but the majority of black people actually lived "it takes a village."

My parents and ancestors tell me all the time how if a child did something wrong they were disciplined by entire communities. Life was hard but family was all that was available for the poor so they stuck together and after the horror of slavery many families wanted to stick together. It was a natural backlash to an earlier status quo.

Jesse or Kevin,

What you fail to recognize is that during that time there was a constant stream of empowerment going on for the black man. There was a sense that you must always be someone and be a person of integrity. That has not left us now but it is not the popular face of American culture. Instead we have the gangster image and over masculinated warrior motif.

For many that sense of empowerment is dead. Unfortunately many of us bought into an individualized consumer driven model for success. It's more about me than my community where as it used to be both. That's what kept our ancestors sane all those years among other things (like the need to survive)

Jesse,

You still have not shown one graph or table explaining where you are getting your data from. You can post one hyperlink.

Oh and I am not bashing marriage at all. It's just that marriage doesn't work for that many couples in the states. Look at the divorce rate inside the church. Out of wedlock births are a problem, no one is disputing that. But the problem has not and will not go away until we as a society stop looking at the people as condemned.

If we are really going to have a discussion to end this then we need to grow our own awareness of the issue and find ways of being supportive and healing for our friends and family members that have kids. Let's start to come up w/ solutions.

Jesse,

I was a poli sci major in college for a little bit. I know all about research. I would really like to see the methodology and research plan you read in your studies.

Thanks.

p

payshun · 2 years ago

"P I think this is one of those times having different religions cause a huge dis connect ."

What are you talking about? I am a Christian, just a contemplative and those beliefs inform how I love. That's where I start from. You start from the condemnation and inference of wrong doing. Do you see the difference? Your posts reveal why I honestly believe the majority of evangelicals are clueless about grace. Instead of offering living water you offer the same tired judgemental tripe. You sound exactly like my mother. You and my mother and other conservative evangelicals need a seminar (or maybe a book or something) on how to be gracious.

"Doing something wrong , caused by another wrong , is still wrong ."

Now what? Now that you have said it wrong what now? Oh wait you answer that here:
"The now what is up to the individual person"

I am so glad you said that. if the now is up to the individual and that's what what happens then maybe you should continue to sit by and do nothing. If you feel that way then do nothing.

I do support traditional families. Do you have any idea how many couples I have fought for? Do you have any idea how hard I tried to save their marriages? Do you have any idea how many people I have personally counselled thru divorce and attempted to heal and love? So don't trivialize my Father's work because I support gay marriage. Unlike you I want everyone treated equally even when it appears to be biblically wrong. I want grown adults to be able to decide for themselves how they should live even if I disagree w/ their choices.

"Somehow you believing that means not supporting the circumstances when that does not happen makes NO sense to me"

Why should it make sense to you? I can see from that you really did not learn as much as you could have from your own personal situation. You should be more gracious. You should be more loving. You should be finding ways to make things better when they deviate from the norm. I want my sister to find a man that she loves and can build a life w/. It just happens to not be the father of her child. Until she finds that I would rather she be single. It will save my niece or nephew heartache later. Why you can't see that?

p

Nuttshell · 2 years ago

Mick wrote the following at 8:46 pm on 11/14/07.

"Ever have to hold a kid because they were balling their eyes out because they forgot what their Mother looked like ? Thats a whitey moment I guess . I suggest to you butt head it has nothing to do with race .

Make it a racial problem , right .
You have not experienced the Love of Christ have you ? To do so much wrong in your life and be loved soooooo much anyway."

I'm not sure why he chose to use that kind of language and to question my relationship with Christ. I have enjoyed and agreed with many, many things Mick has said. Frankly, I didn't understand what his point was about but I thought it merited a response.

Nuttshell · 2 years ago

That's only adjusting for one factor, education. But the point is not that there are no other factors, but that broken families, and not systemic racism, is the primary causative factor. Until we can acknowledge that reality, we cannot forge a real solution. I'm sorry that your own personal experience is so negative.

Posted by: kevin s. | November 15, 2007 12:21 PM

Nuttshell:

You can continue to say it but it doesn't make it so. Do you think any of my employers care if my parents were together or not when they decide whether or not to provide me the same access as my colleagues? BTW, I grew up in an intact family until I was 16 when my mother moved out and my dad took over as primary caregiver.

Also, I'm not sure why anyone construed the notion that I don't support intact families. I MOST DEFINITELY DO. My sister and I have been married one time only to our husbands for 17 years. We have children and couldn't imagine living without our husbands.

Nuttshell · 2 years ago

I'm still reading down through the posts from this morning. Thanks so much Don for your kind words and your plea for decorum. I believe the Holy Spirit was with me because I wasn't upset. I was bemused, but not upset. Sometimes, people want to win battles regardless of whether or not we are actually a war.

I heard something else today re: black male incarceration. This woman talked about her 24 yr old nephew and how he had returned from prison only to be unable to find a job. She did not excuse his crime or his previous behavior. She was distressed about his ability to make his life right now that he had learned his lesson. Could the burden of being underemployed also affect black income?

Somewhere on this planet, I pray constantly that my brother is alive and well. My brother was a graduate of the Wharton School of Business (U of Penn) and Georgetown Law. Tragically, he succumbed to drug addiction in his final semester of law school. While he graduated, his life (as of 10 years ago) has never come close to his talents and abilities. Years of drug abuse change people from law-abiding, productive, industrious people to insecure, paranoid, and damaged relics of their former selves. I will not blame his drug addiction on racism. He made a tragic choice one day and hasn't been able to escape that tragedy.

payshun · 2 years ago

Welcome nutshell and I will be praying for your brother. i have a similar issues w/ mine except he is not as far gone as yours is. Thank you for your candor and honesty.

Blessings.

p

Nuttshell · 2 years ago

Thanks Payshun. I've been reading these blogs for quite some time. I rarely add anything because the invective gets to be so harsh and resorts to personal attacks. Just like what I've seen Bradley doing with you (I believe) on the "Ugly Enemies" discussion.

payshun · 2 years ago

Comes w/ the territory. God says love your enemies. He never said I had to be nice to them. But I am trying. If there is anything you can add to any discussion please jump in.

p

kevin s. · 2 years ago

"Do you think any of my employers care if my parents were together or not when they decide whether or not to provide me the same access as my colleagues?"

No. I am saying that, adjusting for other issues, your race has relatively little impact on hiring and promotion in general. I have no idea waht your boss's particular prejudices are, or how they influence his hiring. He might have a problem with women. He might have a problem with you (fair or unfair).

Statistically speaking, however, there is a much higher correlation between fatherlessness and poverty than there is between race and poverty.

kevin s. · 2 years ago

I said:

"Can you point to the studies that are "more exhaustive"?"

Rick said:

"Not offhand, no"

Natch.

"If you remember, the subject was blacks, not Latinos."

Yeah, that was what I said in response to the comment.

"You have done this so frequently that it would take me days to go back and find all the instances -- and even if I did show you you would deny it out of hand. "

No examples then, just a cheap insult. Got it.

"And to those who wrote the nasty, mean-spirited replies: please re-read Nuttshell's response and ask yourself if it really deserved your despicable responses. "

Aside from Mick, I was the only person who responded. I don't see where my comments were despicable. Calling someone a butthead speaks poorly of your maturity, but we told we lack compassion on the basis of a narrative imposed on us by Nutshell.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

kevin s. -- You're really out of touch; that's all I can say, and what's worse that you insist you're not. It's no wonder your opinions aren't valued here.

Calling someone a butthead speaks poorly of your maturity, but we told we lack compassion on the basis of a narrative imposed on us by Nutshell.

You do lack it -- because compassion includes empathy, which you have rarely, if ever, displayed here. When all else fails you just head on back to your ideology, which is (dare I say this again?) idolatrous.

marialynn · 2 years ago

Nuttshell-
I'm in agreement w/ 100% of what you have said on this issue.
Sen Bill Bradley used to speak of "white skin privlege", he was right.
A great book on the issue of race is "Race Matters" by Cornell West. IT's a collection of interviews with different public figures on race, a dialogue that I think we all should have.
Also- may I just say that my prayers are for your brother.
Pax Christi
Maria

Don · 2 years ago

Aside from Mick, I was the only person who responded. I don't see where my comments were despicable.

I was referring primarily to Mick's comments. I don't think your comments were on the whole disrespectful.

But let me mention one of your comments: your apparent denial of 'white privilege' and endemic racism. Yes, it really does exist. Because you are white, you probably don't see it. I didn't see it either for a long time. But after nine years of living in a mixed-race neighborhood and getting to know some of my black neighbors, along with five years of teaching in a community college with a large black and immigrant student population, I have become more aware of its existence. It's a factor and a hurdle that every non-white American has to face.

You are right that broken families are a factor in economic displacement. But not the only one. The facts are that the economic system continues to be stacked against non-whites right from the start.

I don't have a solution. But before we can have a debate about solutions, we need to recognize the problems. Most of white society has blinders on regarding the barriers that non-whites face. They aren't going to go away until their reality is recognized and accepted.

Peace,

kevin s. · 2 years ago

"kevin s. -- You're really out of touch; that's all I can say"

Of course it is. You can't contend with the arguments, because you are left with fluffy questions of empathy (which you cannot discern from a blog site) in lieu of facts.

If you aren't capable of having a sophisticated discussion about this issue, that is understandable, but don't supplant insult and pretend you have made a compelling argument on behalf of your cause. Confidence in one's own assertions is belligerence.

To Don's argument's, since he has actually bothered to, you know, argue.

"Yes, it really does exist. Because you are white, you probably don't see it."

If I am going to concede that this is true, than you must concede that those of different racial and ethnic background perceive more prejudice than does really exist.

As such, we are left with to examine empirical data, which represents the only hope of transcending our own biases. At present, the data suggests that the largest problem is broken families, not racial discrimination. It isn't even close.

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

"
What are you talking about? I am a Christian,

Oh , You told me you use to be an Evangelical , had low opinions of them as you often remind me of and that you were a contemplative . I had to look it up to be honest , and could not find much information on them .

P
"just a contemplative and those beliefs inform how I love. That's where I start from. You start from the condemnation and inference of wrong doing. "

See what I mean , not at all . Responding to children out of wedlock I responded out of love for kids , and of people . God does not want children born out of wedlock P . God is not condemn us or you , he is only directing people to live in a way that provides the most security and ability for children to reach their potential .






Do you see the difference? Your posts reveal why I honestly believe the majority of evangelicals are clueless about grace.

"Gee what a great example of starting from love "



P said

sound exactly like my mother. You and my mother and other conservative evangelicals need a seminar (or maybe a book or something) on how to be gracious.

well make sure you put on some thing clean today

P
Unlike you I want everyone treated equally even when it appears to be biblically wrong.

Nevermind P ,

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

Nutshell,

I apologize for hurting you . Having gone through taking care of two little ones , one idn diapers , I had no intention of using race as anything , but to illustrate the hurt and ill social consequences that occurs to everyone when children grow up in homes without their Mom and dad . You drawing race into it , well ?

The comments and personal attacks appear are only noticable to the political view point you support from your comments .

I suggest you read about all the personal failures those that hold different opinions on matters that are reflected on this blog . Pretend for a moment you agree with the political views of those people , and see how the people you just shared a kind conversation with treated them .



"All that those who so responded have done is demonstrate that racism is still alive and well, sad to say."
Don said

What a pathetic thing thing to say Don .
But it figures

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

I suggest you read about all the personal failures those that hold different opinions on matters that are reflected on this blog.

That's beside the point. It's not in the least about "personal failures"; this is about policy -- what our government and culture support. In fact, you seem to subscribe to the idea that "if people just keep their nose clean and work hard, things will be fine," which we all know in our hearts is garbage. And Don is right -- the conservatives on this blog may not themselves be racists but they have done nothing practical to cause change in that area.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

Confidence in one's own assertions is belligerence.

Remember that the next time you post here.

If I am going to concede that this is true, than you must concede that those of different racial and ethnic background perceive more prejudice than does really exist.

BTW, I personally know the difference -- in one case I was told I wasn't wanted. And again, you just proved the other posters' argument, that you believe things can't possibly be that bad. For the sake of your ideology you just can't admit there's a major problem with race in this country and that the political right is behind it -- that makes conservatism look unprincipled and unjust.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

"At present, the data suggests that the largest problem is broken families, not racial discrimination. It isn't even close." Kevin

Nobody is a racist today. Racism is a bad word and cannot be used. I can go to Mississippi to attend a funeral for a teenage boy who was found hung in a tree, but that was a suicide. It had nothing to do with him being seen talking to a white girl at school. I can hear my friends talk about Mexicans and liken them to cockroaches but they are not racists, why they all go to church and know somebody who is darker skinned than they are. I can meet a guy at a coffee shop who had his bike stolen by illegals, (whom he never saw do it and were never apprehended but somehow he knows that illegals did it, but he is not racist. He is a victim of a crime. I can read about all the laws against dangerous undocumented people who have been here for decades without even once trying to overthrow the country, but that is about the rule of law and keeping English as our national language. I can know friends who get pulled over by the police because their first name is the same as a Cuban murderer's, despite the fact that they are native American and in no other way match the Cuban man's height, weight, hair color etc. but that was not an excuse to harass a poor man of color, that was National security. I can talk to the cops who laughed at the Mexican kid as he laid on the ground dead. He was shot in the back three times after he tried to steal 24 cans of beer and in the morning read about it being a righteous shoot, but that was not racism either. Every one of those cops told me so, and evidently the local newspaper agreed with them. Their laughter was just a release of tension. I can go to inner city schools and hear of the differences in funding for them versus their their suburban counterparts, but that is just because of the property tax base. The fact that the law makes it that way and the predominant white voters won't change it is in no way racism. Can they help it if their property is worth more and they were smart enough to buy a better home in a better area of town, one that has no people of color in it to speak of? I can know that until recently Los Angeles had not built a new school in thirty years and their minority kids are crowded into facilities built for one third the number of children who attend, but believe me that isn't because of racism. And that situation in Jena LA is just a huge misunderstanding. Those white boys who hung the nooses in the tree were just joking around. In no way was that a hate crime. The DA threatening those kids with the destruction of their lives if they did not stop crowing about racism was just a misquote of a dedicated public servant. And by the way Al Sharpton is a shill. You can't trust a single word he says.
I can tell you that the destruction of families is the largest problem because I don't see racism anywhere or if I do it certainly isn't the problem all the Black and Brown folk make it out to be. If all these black people would just stop watching MTV, quit listening to rap music get a job and stay married, like I did, all of their imagined racism would just fad into the dream world of self pity it came from. All of the data proves this to be true. Bottom line is, it is the people of color who need to change, not me, I am one of the good guys.
By the way Don, everyone who posts here is aware of how mean, pathetic and belligerant you really are. All they have to do is go back through past postings of yours and see the data proving it.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

To the anonymous poster above -- I hope you're not confusing Don with Donny, who are two different guys; Don's "on the one" here.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

I am very aware of who Donny is and appreciate Don very much. He is probably one of the top five non-belligerent posters here and it is absurd to describe him with that moniker or to ascribe to him that fault.
You are right Rick when you say Kevin cannot admit to race being the issue. It is very difficult for any majority to see things through the eyes of the non-dominant minority. Kevin your logic is getting in the way again.
Mick
I am trying to think of a way I can get through to you. I like you, but your thoughts here have been too harsh.
If I were to hypothetically tell you I am tired of your problems with the English language. I am tired of constantly having to read and reread everything you write in order to figure out what you are saying. If I were to tell you I also had to learn to read and write and it was hard. It took me years to finally master these skills and I experienced many failures along the way. That I still make mistakes and I am not perfect but I know that if you just slowed down, constantly reread your writing and took more English classes at college I am sure you could do better, perhaps even becoming as proficient a writer as I am. If I said any of these things would that seem a little wrong to you? All of these ideas may actually work and be good advice but that would not make it a proper attitude on my part. Nor would it excuse my lack of sensitivity and condescending attitude any such statement would rightfully entail.

For a white man to tell an African American that their culture, much of which has been shaped by our dominant cultures attitudes and evil actions, is the problem; for any white guy to then suggest that what they need to do is become more like the white culture, is not just a bad tactic, it is wrong.
To compare what you went through to get to where you are to what they have to overcome, is not the way to go about this. Listening. Trying to feel what it must be like and to demonstrate the "tender mercy" of Christ which suffers with the sufferer and never condemns, has to be the first and foremost goal. When we have won the right to speak and have demonstrated that we understand problems in this manner perhaps we can do some comparisons and our advice can be heard. I do not think that this is easy to accomplish in this forum. Therefore I have asked you to reread Nuttshell's postings and try to see things from her angle.

Don · 2 years ago

to the anonymous poster above -- I hope you're not confusing Don with Donny, who are two different guys; Don's "on the one" here.

Unfortunately, Rick, irony isn't very easy to put across in this online format. I do think the anonymous poster was being ironic--at least I took him that way.

But thanks for sticking up for me!

Peace,

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

anom

I suggest harsh appears to be something you relate to on an idealogical basis only and when it comes from only one side of the political spectrum . When a Don , Rick , P James Martin discredits another human being it is done in love and truth . Come on , you sound like a Air America commercial.


Nutshell made some comments regarding race , in fact I agreed with her . Even spoke to my hippoe days about being picked on , but I could get a haircut .

I never spoke to black culture , I spoke to having babies with no MOM AND DAD. IN FACT WHEN RACE was brought in , I said I could not even imagin what that factor was like . It was hard enough handling single parenting as a white person .

Don is non beligerent ? Are you serious . He is one of the biggest causes of dissension and arrogance displayed here . I suppose you believe Rick is promoting racial harmony ? P is supporting Christian Charity .

How can a white person speak to black culture ? I can understand that , I can't / I rather listen , in fact have learned quite abit here . Rick is quite an intelligent man In my opinion . I think he has been so hurt he has gone to a place that is beyond my ability to converse with though .

Hard to understand something you are not part of of I agree. But Rick just made a comment about conservatism behind racism , and you said nothing from that slant . hence your comments grow tiresome , one sided and supporting bigotry , not causing any meaningful dialogue . I can't say if I like you , its hard to say when its you or not . Or who you are .

I was lumped into you white people comment . Many people were dealing with issues relating to the original blog entry . I always see God and then the family as a the basis to start from . It can go from there to government help , can go to the church , can join both , or just help from the community . But always God and family . There are those here , and you appear to be one that will attack that belief rather then dialouge with it . Well go ahead , and don't expect me not to call you on it . God and family is the most imporatant aspect of any culture , I can not speak to the sulture , but I will support that .





I was not asking or pretending to have the answers . In fact from the begining I asked why no solutions were given in the entry .



Ok we have a problem , race and lower percentage of income , etc . No solution given ? Why ?




My only solution that I know of is God and family as the first step . I am all ears after that , so far here all the left does is make sure everyone knows it is the rights fault ? I don't even know what government policies are being recommended , all I know is its the rights fault .




I will promote God's plan of having a Mom and dad in the home , with Christ as the head of the family .
as you seem able to continue blog here with allowing anyone to know your name , but allowing yourself to judge others , and always negatively those on the right side of the issues .



And I am harsh .

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Nutshell,

I apologize for hurting you ... Starts off promising enough. I had no intention of using race as anything , but to illustrate the hurt and ill social consequences that occurs to everyone when children grow up in homes without their Mom and dad . Ok. You drawing race into it , well ? Huh? I thought the topic was about race and wealth. Did I inject race into the original post and the subsequent posts? How did I draw race into it?

The comments and personal attacks appear are only noticable to the political view point you support from your comments . You've completely lost me. Are you saying that I deserved the personal attacks based upon my political view point? Why would you call me a butt head? Because I didn't agree with you? You didn't hurt me but I felt like you diminished your entire standing by resorting to such sophomoric and ad hominem attacks. I don't tend to post to many blogs other than this one and my cousin's because as a Christian, I believe (maybe naively) that we have more respect for one another and abide by a code of conduct that doesn't condone personal attacks.

I suggest you read about all the personal failures those that hold different opinions on matters that are reflected on this blog . Pretend for a moment you agree with the political views of those people , and see how the people you just shared a kind conversation with treated them . Again I have to ask, is it okay to personally attack someone you disagree with? I know the feeling to lash out with someone we disagree with exists but we don't have to attack them.
Posted by: Mick Sheldon | November 16, 2007 3:07 AM

As I said in an earlier post, I've read quite a few of your posts and I've agreed with you a lot. More than anything else though, you've often struck me as a thoughtful and mature individual. In fact I thought of you very kindly, as opposed to Kevin, who I don't know that I would get on with on a personal level. I'm not sure why I drawn such ire from you. I definitely think you've misread me with regards to family and marriage. I can certainly sympathize about the kids in diapers. Mine is now 5 and I couldn't wait for that phase to be over.

One last thing...following your words of apology, it didn't appear (to me) that you were actually contrite. My take on it what you said was that I deserved the personal attacks because of my political beliefs. I don't believe I have really revealed my personal/political beliefs. I don't particularly like labels because I don't fit into any one camp. In some ways, I would say the same about you. If you didn't really want to apologize, then don't. My feelings aren't hurt and you'd have to call me much worse for me to be hurt.

Thank you Father for allowing your servants to dialogue and share with one another in a positive and constructive way. Amen.

Nuttshell · 2 years ago

Oops. That was me who posted above.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

When a Don, Rick, P James Martin discredits another human being it is done in love and truth. Come on, you sound like a Air America commercial.

Mick -- Please. There are not always two versions of truth, and sometimes the "liberals" have it right.

Don is non beligerent? Are you serious. He is one of the biggest causes of dissension and arrogance displayed here. I suppose you believe Rick is promoting racial harmony? P is supporting Christian Charity.

Don isn't. FWIW, I've been into "racial harmony" virtually since I was born and payshun's comments, though he admits to being far more theologically liberal than I, are pretty much right on as well.

Here's the problem: As payshun alluded to earlier, sometimes to show love you have to get in someone's face and tell him/her off. In this case, it means admitting there is a race problem in this country, aided and abetteted by economics and politics, and sitting around the campfire singing "Kum By Yah" or "blaming the victims" won't cut it. The truth may offend you (and it apparently has done so), but you need to hear it from sources other than the political right. I have often said on this blog that the conservative agenda reeks of idolatry, and here's one case where it applies.

Ok we have a problem, race and lower percentage of income, etc. No solution given? Why?

You would choke over real solutions because they're based on political issues. That means (horrors!) more "big government liberalism."

payshun · 2 years ago

"See what I mean , not at all . Responding to children out of wedlock I responded out of love for kids , and of people . God does not want children born out of wedlock P . God is not condemn us or you , he is only directing people to live in a way that provides the most security and ability for children to reach their potential."

Reading what you actually wrote it came across and judgemental and out of touch w/ reality. God does want two parent households but he can be exceedingly gracious when that doesn't happen. It doesn't seem you got the memo on that one.

"Gee what a great example of starting from love."

Jesus responded w/ far harsher things than I have ever said when confronting his pharisees. Be glad you are getting off that easy. Oh and I never stereotyped all of you in one camp just many folks that believe like you and seem to think one plan fits all. That's not always practical or reality.

p

Don · 2 years ago

Don is non beligerent? Are you serious. He is one of the biggest causes of dissension and arrogance displayed here.

Well, Mick, I've been called a lot of things before, some of them unsavory and unprintable, but I gotta say this is the first time I've ever been called arrogant. If anything, I'm usually regarded as somewhat of a wuss--ya' know, easily intimidated and the like. But hey, if ya' get yer kicks out of accusing others of causing dissent when you are the one labeling people butthead, or calling Neuro_nurse a pharisee (on Oct. 3 in Rev. Wallis' blog calling for override of Bush's veto of SCIP--he isn't posting here anymore, is he?--at least in part because of your insults), or calling N. M. Rod a jerk (in Wallis' "War Pitched with a Curve Ball" on November 7), or telling Philip Rizk (Nov. 6) to "get stuffed," or accusing Rev. Wallis (in "A Correction and an Apology," Nov. 9, of having a deity complex--then go ahead and accuse me of causing dissent and/or being arrogant.

As easily intimidated as I might be, I think I'm big enough to handle it.

Have a peaceful weekend,

Nuttshell · 2 years ago

I'm wondering if I misjudged Mick and thought him to be a bigger man. I saw his comments on the Fugitive Slave Law blog as well and man he's kinda nasty. He accused someone of lecturing on personal attacks as if there's something wrong with that. I realize that there are some guys who just like to attack people on blogs and he, Kevin, Moderatelad and Wolverine all seem to do that no matter what the topic. I've never seen them to do anything other than pick at Jim Wallis or anyone who defends him. Yikes.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

He accused someone of lecturing on personal attacks as if there's something wrong with that. I realize that there are some guys who just like to attack people on blogs and he, Kevin, Moderatelad and Wolverine all seem to do that no matter what the topic.

Welcome to this blog.

I know that kind well -- in their view anyone who disagrees with them needs to be taken down, and that's why they're here (although of late Wolverine seems to have toned his ideology a bit). That's why I refuse to give them even an inch.

But anyway, I find it so amusing that conservatives support the policies and subscribe to the attitudes that they do and still expect blacks to consider voting for them -- and then they complain because they're "disrespected." Well, Jesus said, "Live by the sword, die by the sword," and that's what we're seeing now. They have no answers for addressing racism because they're all about authority and just can't give any of it up.

It's also why modern conservatism in general is dying a slow death -- Bill Clinton was the first pinhole in the balloon and the war in Iraq has punctured a bigger hole. Who'da thunk that the front-runner for president on the GOP side would support abortion and gay and has been divorced twice?

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Don

Are you keeping a list and checking it twice ? Yep first time I have been called a racist in my life was on this site . I am 52 , been called a few other things .


I guess I could go and cherry pick some quotes ,especially yours . Ronald reagan supporter you told me ? Remember I asked you if anyone ever called you a racist here yet and you had a melt down . Quite coincidental as they say .

One thing , for some odd reason you seem name calling is justified . Which is quite amazing , it never is . One thing is hard for me , such as when you called me a racist above , is not to retaliate . Also having a small ability with the English Language , I tend to take short cuts and at times even not trying to be abrupt , it comes off that way .


Also I "feel" as though I am allowing your distortion of truth to be promoted if I don't say anything . The other aspect I know is it is a sin to hold a grudge against a brother . Best thing to do is to apologize here . I am sorry .
I was wrong . And I will do my best never to do it again . If I have offended you , I apologize .

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

Nutshell said

"I'm wondering if I misjudged Mick and thought him to be a bigger man. I saw his comments on the Fugitive Slave Law blog as well and man he's kinda nasty. "


Okay, I give up. You black guys have all the answer for and about white conservative people.

I'm tired of you all (paysun, Rick, Nutshell).

If I had come out with this statement , what would you have thought ? Could you guess what would be said ? From you or some of the others here ? Be honest .







Nutshell,

I apologize for hurting you ... Starts off promising enough. I had no intention of using race as anything , but to illustrate the hurt and ill social consequences that occurs to everyone when children grow up in homes without their Mom and dad . Ok. You drawing race into it , well ?



" My point was I said I had no solution , in the past with such topics I promote the typical shool voucher, which is said no to . I did not consider lacking a parent in the home was racial , i considere dit a normal fact for all of us , we were created that way . "








Huh? I thought the topic was about race and wealth. Did I inject race into the original post and the subsequent posts? How did I draw race into it?




The comments and personal attacks appear are only noticable to the political view point you support from your comments . You've completely lost me.




Are you saying that I deserved the personal attacks based upon my political view point?




Why would you call me a butt head? Because I didn't agree with you? You didn't hurt me but I felt like you diminished your entire standing by resorting to such sophomoric and ad hominem attacks.





I don't tend to post to many blogs other than this one and my cousin's because as a Christian, I believe (maybe naively) that we have more respect for one another and abide by a code of conduct that doesn't condone personal attacks.



. Pretend for a moment you agree with the political views of those people , and see how the people you just shared a kind conversation with treated them . Again I have to ask, is it okay to personally attack someone you disagree with?






Mine is now 5 and I couldn't wait for that phase to be over.



One last thing...following your words of apology, it didn't appear (to me) that you were actually contrite. My take on it what you said was that I deserved the personal attacks because of my political beliefs.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Reading what you actually wrote it came across and judgemental and out of touch w/ reality. God does want two parent households but he can be exceedingly gracious when that doesn't happen. It doesn't seem you got the memo on that one.

P said

The only reason I am responding here is because you said I reminded you of your Mom , and actually there one part of me that just wants to hug you and another that feels you need a spanking .


Your destined belief of conservatives is what causes this perception by you . The very reason I gave my personal experience here was not to be the expert , I stated aboveI did not know the answer and was somewhat surprised Wallis did not advocate for any I assumed it would be a government policy , but what ? Why just write a blog about a sad situation and offer no hope . I like to try to find solutions , even when there are none I strive for them .




My only two cents would be just havingsomeone to be by your side would be a good start . Nutshell explained some things and I agreed with her , a
lady maryanne stated she like my points and sort of bonded with the fact we both had no clue from a black perspective what all the problems were
here , I was all ears except from some cherry picking Rick does to all my quotes I was tuned in ,
I misunderstood Nutshell
could it be my predestined view ?




You
Jesus responded w/ far harsher things than I have ever said when confronting his pharisees.


P I am not in the mood , you have your share of pharisees , we all do .

You
Oh and I never stereotyped all of you in one camp just many folks that believe like you and seem to think one plan fits all.


Oh please , your in Pharisee role right
now . One solution fits all ? Again , saying a MOm and A Dad was not the solution , to me it was basic common sense . Its the starting point .


The problems Nutshell brought up were the problems that even with a Mom and dad there would problems .

I was all ears till the you white guy comment . I had no solution , I was waiting , all I was saying was the obvious , except by you who feel it is some kind of attack on others or whatever . It is just nice having some one
on your side , I believe the Hebrew translated as
Help Mate .

Later

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

You black guys have all the answer for and about white conservative people.

You bet we do, because you've been trying to shove your views down our throat for the better part of 30 years, especially without talking to us, and we're not going to take it anymore. You think we "don't understand" you; trust me, we do and we know where you will take things. That is unacceptable to us, and the quicker you understand that the better off we'll all be.

I did it to you at the start of this, but say I said liberalism is the basis for racism, how would you respond? If you have a problem with me attacking Wallis, do you have the same problem with people attacking James Dobson and cherry picking his quotes?

Apples and oranges. First, racism and modern conservatism historically do go hand-in-hand despite your protestations to the contrary, which is why few blacks (even Christians) vote Republican today. Second, Dobson's views on issues are well known, and as such he is hardly misquotable. If I do "cherry-pick" from your quotes, it's for reasons of space, not because I'm taking your words out of context. Because I don't do that.

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

Nutshell, staying out of this ? I made a commeent thinking you would understand the offensive nature of your comments by reversing it , and Rick not only agrees with it , he lamented on it .

My example of a nasty comment ,

"You black guys have all the answer for and about white conservative people".

Rick agrees he can speak about what is my heart and belief based on my race .

"You bet we do, because you've been trying to shove your views down our throat for the better part of 30 years, especially without talking to us, and we're not going to take it anymore"


So Nutshell , where are you here ? If you agree with me , Rick will assume you are aproped up African American . If you agree with him , well I
am glad I apologized . Leave it that .
You are free to say white people who are conservative are basically racist . You know that is what Rick promotes , no different then your concern about a cop following you in a store in how it makes me feel when people on this blog say and believe such things . Then say they speak or know Christ ?



You know the guy who ran In Virginia I believe , Steele was his name . A fairly Conservative black republican . A person actually rolled an oreo cookie onto the platform when he was speaking . You see , when a person says they know what is in my heart because of my race or because of any race , well I see that as a very evil thing .
Because I believe in freedom , believe that government's ob is suppose to protect it formost , and linking that to racism is just so off the wall . I came to those beliefs by means of a slow process, race was not involved at all .



What say you ?



.

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

Rick agrees he can speak about what is my heart and belief based on my race.

Based on what you have already said, what is your heart and belief are as clear as a bell.

Then say they speak or know Christ?

Would you say that about MLK Jr.? Because he said similar things.

You know the guy who ran In Virginia I believe, Steele was his name. A fairly Conservative black republican. A person actually rolled an oreo cookie onto the platform when he was speaking.

It was Maryland, and that story was exploded as a myth long ago.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Rick ,

Actually I was trying to have a dialouge with Niutshell . I already know your opinions , you find racism in conservatism , you find conservatives narrow minded , etc . As you find me . In fact I don't kinow too many people that find such a dedication in explaining as you do .

Believe it or not , there are more important things in life to some of us , that is relationships and people . I offended someone , and quite frankly have found myself not really able to debate issues on this blog .

I hear the same comments from the folks out here on secular blogs , but instead of using God , they mock the folks out here for believing in fairy tales .

So what is your point ? I know your views . Perhaps it would be just polite to allow myself to build a rlationship and leave on a friendly term with another human being . Your right , we have have different religions .

payshun · 2 years ago

"I like to try to find solutions , even when there are none I strive for them ."

But that's my point. Your solution doesn't work for everyone and it can't.

"Why just write a blog about a sad situation and offer no hope ."

Because sometimes you all need to see this. I have known what Jim wrote about for years. I studied it in college and did stuff about it too.

"Your destined belief of conservatives is what causes this perception by you ."

Actually you are right about that. I make the choices about my perceptions when it comes to conservatives. But then conservatives don't really give me a lot to work w/. it is not destined if conservatives were more practical and less judgemental I would not have as much to say about it.

p

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

But that's my point. Your solution doesn't work for everyone and it can't.

Ps said
No thats not your point , ad nauseum may I add . I NEVER offered a solution . I said I did not have one , wondered why one was never offered .



P said
Because sometimes you all need to see this. I have known what Jim wrote about for years. I studied it in college and did stuff about it too.

Me
You think this is not a known fact ? let me explain something to you , I, white male conservative Christian , am well awareof this sitation . I side with equaling education by means of vouchers , charters , or open to different solutions . Knowing this is not hot off the press news . My ideas have been shot down by liberals , I believe it is based on Union strength , making sure one ideaolgy controls things , but that is my opinion . You believe it is not a good policy , and Oh well . Then that is that . The majority believes your way , the social contacts believe the wy you do and the majority of information you receive will support that belief . Some people are slowly coming around , I guess out of frustration if nothing else. Public education was broken before the medical system was .


Liberals control the purse strings to education .Liberals control academia , not conservatives , they have
controled
Congress for the larger
percentage of the past 50 years .


YOu



I make the choices about my perceptions when it comes to conservatives.



Right , and I have to admit I am that way about liberals . Interesting the issues supported by liberals here are exactly , no difference at all that are supported by the pagan left where Ilive . Even down to the hate America rants , but here it is idolatry , there in the pagan left it
isanti capitalism and the free market .



The quote used by Wallis concerning the Alien from Lev.was a perfect example . In the Seattle area paper much was being made of Lev but from the pagan perspective of all the laws in it that sound so stupid to the pagan mind now. It is used to promote the sterotyope ofignorance , not willing to listen ,isues the librals promoteso often . While of course speaking to how they are open . So successfully acomplished . It actually is quite strategically revealing to see both the religious left and pagan left using the same Scriptures but in a way to distort
what the other side really believes .
remarkable , well done P . You see Lev here promoting the same belief for
concern for your fellow
man in regards to illegal immigration . And if you don't go along , well your Faith in Christ is questioned . As was on the blog , and defended may I add ny others . In my area , the liberal
pagan brothers use Lev
to mock Christians, but this time because of their belief in scripture . And use the belief of scripture and Christians belief that the word of God is meant to protect us and such as really a belief in a fairy tale book that promotes hate and wars .




To promote Marriage and security for children to your mind set is atatcking people . The world view you share can not even understand the way I see the Love of God and his desire for us to be happy and secure . You have to twist it into something evil , hateful, totally hidden in a negative belief you have . Ok again you win .

not because of your ideas , but because you suppose you know my heart and what Ibelieve . and support a world view that promotes that negative view . That negative view is in the majority , I think it always has been . Since I been BORN AGAIN anyway .

The liberal shallowness and lack of Christ in liberal Christianity is so obviopus to people who I have sahred the comments from this board to .
And you speak to me about people who have been so mistreated that can't have healthy relationships because of the inflicted stigma ,

To me that sounds racist , I am not saying you are . But obviously if you understand what the stigma of a negative culture can do , you certainly have no problem promoting it on others . Its to me saying yes this stigma was eveil because it wa sdone blanketly because of race , and people have been seriously effected . And just when I wabnt to reach out , ask a question , I am told something that promotes that very eveil you say has occured . You promote a vicious stigma on beliefs and a culture , in fact i did not even know you were a Christian , I don't even think you are concerned that i did not know that . To you , it is based in my ignorace , nothing perhaps in the way you have made it clear you view me . I find your beliefs and stigma very shallow P , sorry ,but I like you , In Christ I love you . I bet we would have a blast if we hung out . And perhaps you could better explain things to me and I to you . But brother , you failed here , and its not becaiuse of my shallowness , even though I may be in many areas , its because of the way you treated me in shallowness .

Big difference , Rick wins the debate , but what does he win ? It has convinced me that many black people are brought up to believe people who feel left out as they do , are not listened to , stigmatized to look evil , my lack of english I know only promotes the ignorant view of Christians of my Faith , but that for some reason has never stopped me . I always have gobe behind enemy lines so to speak , and when met in person , have changed many stereotypes . Unfortunately , the liberals I meet and get to know often think I am the exception , that the rest are mean spiritd and such . You see in person P, I am more likely to care about you , then the meaningless word s people so often confuse and use . Love always confuses Liberals , but it is hard , because usually you do have to put up with the beliefs that Rick so openly shares about me .




You
But then conservatives don't really give me a lot to work w/. it is not destined if conservatives were more practical and less judgemental I would not have as much to say about it.

Me
I see it the other way around . The perfect example is up above , liberals using the Bible to ricdicule believers by pagans , the liberals who say they are Christians using the Bible to preach I am a holier then you doctrine , mix it with socila justice , and expect others even to understand it , and expecting them to stick around while you tell them your not going to take it from them anymore . While the vast majority of us are going what are you talking about , we are just trying to pay our bills like anyone else , and doing the best we can is a culture that appears to care less and less of our beliefs all the time . You loose the debate not on facts .
You win it on presentation and the obvious desire in this world to reject the Light .


liberalism is upon us , and the Christians I know are not fighting back P , they are retreating into their chruches and communities . Liberalism has won the day in my community , we felt that way when Reagan was in , which is what really enlightens to me about liberals . Perception V reality . When Reagan was in governemtn got bigger , taxes even actually got higher . The moral positions of traditional beliefs was lessened , the gay agenda , people shacking up instead of marrying , abortion , ect , all the things Christians like me see as signs of what is upon us now , were growing .
Liberals see Reagan years as a lost , socially they were still leaping ahead . The climate now is people with my belief system are not only ignored , you have it even more in the mainstram media that we suck . Plain and simple , so don't give me your stigma lectures , I am the first to go yeah i understand , so why are you doing it .

Forget it , your too smart and righteous . And of cours right and I need to learn all from you . Trust me I get it ,

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

Actually I was trying to have a dialouge with Niutshell. I already know your opinions, you find racism in conservatism, you find conservatives narrow minded, etc. As you find me. In fact I don't know too many people that find such a dedication in explaining as you do.

Remember, I've been at this for 25 years or so. I know what it's like to be shouted down by the right; I know what it's like to be insulted because of not being "politically correct"; I know what it's like to be called a "socialist" for not toeing the right-wing line. (I am an evangelical Christian, BTW.) Nutshell and I likely share pretty much the same beliefs due to similar experiences.

I offended someone, and quite frankly have found myself not really able to debate issues on this blog.

Because, bascially, you want to control the debate -- you came to this blog with the idea that your way is automatically correct and you were going to "educate" everyone else; when I challenge you you make all kinds of accusations about what I believe, where I come from and all that. Every tirade you go on you basically stick your foot in your mouth.

You think this is not a known fact? let me explain something to you, I, white male conservative Christian, am well aware of this sitation. I side with equaling education by means of vouchers, charters, or open to different solutions. Knowing this is not hot off the press news. My ideas have been shot down by liberals, I believe it is based on Union strength, making sure one ideaolgy controls things, but that is my opinion.

And, as the son of teachers, I believe it to be an invalid and uninformed one. The reason vouchers have never gotten over is because, it turns out, people in better schools don't want kids from lesser means in them. In my city charters have been an unmitigated disaster. Face it -- there is no easy, systemic solution to the education problem.

That leads back to the original topic, which is the greater income gap between black and white Americans; doing so will aid education. But you haven't addressed that yet.

payshun · 2 years ago

"To promote Marriage and security for children to your mind set is atatcking people . The world view you share can not even understand the way I see the Love of God and his desire for us to be happy and secure . You have to twist it into something evil , hateful, totally hidden in a negative belief you have . Ok again you win ."

Too bad this is not a debate. I am not interested in winning just pointing out a fact that you are twisting to support that I don't support marriage. I support marriage where it works not as a solution in and of itself. That's what you believe. YOu believe and my mother and other conservative evangelicals believe a two parent household is the best for the child regardless of all other circumstances. Is that right? Did I get it?

Again why can't you deal w/ the particulars of the situation I listed w/ my sister. She doesn't love the man that she is with enough to marry him. Why should she marry someone she did not love?

"The liberal shallowness and lack of Christ in liberal Christianity is so obviopus to people who I have sahred the comments from this board to .
And you speak to me about people who have been so mistreated that can't have healthy relationships because of the inflicted stigma ,"

Yah because many of our conservatives sisters and brothers are using marriage to attack out of wedlock people and using it as a wedge issue to condemn them. Instead of lifting them up and exalting the lowly you were attacking them. Do I need to copy and post what you said earlier?

Well duh most of us have been so mistreated we can't have healthy relationships. Most human beings suck at having them.

You also said:
I see it the other way around . The perfect example is up above , liberals using the Bible to ricdicule believers by pagans , the liberals who say they are Christians using the Bible to preach I am a holier then you doctrine , mix it with socila justice , and expect others even to understand it , and expecting them to stick around while you tell them your not going to take it from them anymore .

Me:
Well I am not holier or better than you. My beliefs and faith don't make me more beloved or add an extra day to my life so your above assertion has no place in me. I am not righteous by what I do. So that means nothing. My righteousness comes from faith in my father. It has nothing to do w/ what I do. It is his righteousness that lives in me, not my own as if any good I ever accomplished was righteous or as if any good I will do will make me righteous. That's just silly. I know I will never be righteous on my own. So stop accusing me of being self-righteous. If I need to confess every sin I have done and continue to do to prove that then I can start but then this blog would turn into a Dr. Phil show and quite honestly I don't think any of us want that. I know I don't.

"The moral positions of traditional beliefs was lessened , the gay agenda , people shacking up instead of marrying , abortion , ect , all the things Christians like me see as signs of what is upon us now , were growing ."

Us liberal students of history actually know that adultery was a huge problem throughout the US from it's inception. We know that many people were discretely shacking up and not being honest about what they were doing. Us students of history know about the syphillis issues back in the day and how that changed sexual practice here in the states. We know that porn has not changed in nearly 100 years and that we have never been this healthy mythological righteous nation. I am glad to see you all on the right are starting to wake up. Maybe we all can start living by the kingdom instead of by the world. Leave the gays alone, let them live as they see fit, work on the church and let us love. It really should be that simple.

p

payshun · 2 years ago

"Plain and simple , so don't give me your stigma lectures , I am the first to go yeah i understand , so why are you doing it ."

Then where is the empathy? You want us to come to your side and look at it from your perspective and drop ours. Ok I did. Now what. Now I can see how you all are laughed and seen as fools. Now I can understand that you feel ignored, abandonded and isolated. I can get all of that. The question is do you all feel the same way about people like my sister, people for whom your belief system doesn't work and can't work for.

Your system works for you because of the work you put in it and because of the faith you have. Not everyone has that. They should not be forced to live like they did. From your posts it sounds like your defense of marriage is more about trying to fit some people into a social norm that hurts kids. I admit it's the best one we have but its not the best and the sooner we human beings can acknowledge that and deal w/ the weight of our brokeness/sinfullness the sooner we can all heal and make the changes that fit best w/ those that can't fit ours.

p

payshun · 2 years ago

One last thing who cares what our pagan and non-Christian brothers and sisters think? I know I don't. When it comes to issues of faith I am not turning to them for understanding. I think their views are important when it comes to viewing how we treat them but that's about it.

p

payshun · 2 years ago

"You are free to say white people who are conservative are basically racist ."

First off Rick did not say that and your interpretation of what he said is way off.

This is what he said:
You bet we do, because you've been trying to shove your views down our throat for the better part of 30 years, especially without talking to us, and we're not going to take it anymore. You think we "don't understand" you; trust me, we do and we know where you will take things. That is unacceptable to us, and the quicker you understand that the better off we'll all be...


Apples and oranges. First, racism and modern conservatism historically do go hand-in-hand despite your protestations to the contrary, which is why few blacks (even Christians) vote Republican today.

Me:
He said historically modern conservatives have been in league w/ racism. That's true despite party affiliation. Democrats have conservatives as part of their party. But the difference in the two parties is that the democrats chose to face many of those issues and move on. Conservatives and the republican party are not doing that. You know it.

So let's point out that Rick has not said you were racist, not once. He did say that there is a historical legacy of racism that conservatives have to overcome. That's totally different from what you said above.

p

Mick sheldon · 2 years ago

" I support marriage where it works not as a solution in and of itself. That's what you believe. YOu believe and my mother and other conservative evangelicals believe a two parent household is the best for the child regardless of all other circumstances. Is that right? Did I get it?"

Me

You did not get it !!! I think with the brain God gave me , perhaps not as well as you .The guy who was the greeter at my church when I first got saved thought if the Lord came back and we are the movies we be in big holy poo poo . There are liberals here who believe eating meat is against God , that voting republican is anti God , etc .


If the relationship is abusive is one reason not to stay in a marriage , or for many reasons Marriages can not stay intact . Your sister not loving the guy is a perfect example of why not to get married . For the child I wish she did love him , and him her . But how can I put her down for not loving the guy ? Your liberal bias is incredible here P , why would I put her down , maybe he is a creep , maybe he acts like Rick .
Excuse me if I don;t jump up and down and go great , it will be very hard for her . Trust me , its not easy by yourself with kids .

It would be unhealthy for all concern . Interestingly the AP just had a story today about children abuse and the increase . It dealt with the fact people are living together more often , not just marriages where there is one step parent , more common to shack up without marriage even . The story centered on a couple of kids that were murdered by these women boy friends . It was in today's paper , not a conservative paper , a left leaning paper . Very sad , the more kids are exposed to living with the non natural parent , the greater the chance of abuse . Just a fact . Spin anyway you want to , can't change the reality of it .



You

Again why can't you deal w/ the particulars of the situation I listed w/ my sister. She doesn't love the man that she is with enough to marry him. Why should she marry someone she did not love?

me

no P , you are really lack understanding where i am coming from . A few weeks ago I was talking to my wife about a young lady we know who just got pregnant , I asked my wife if she was going to marry the man , my wife said why , just because she is pregnant . Actually I thought it was a good question , but my wife was right of course . You see , she and I look at things basically the same , webelieve in the importance of God , Mate , children .

The point is though , I wish we had a culture that would have supported the beliefs that it is better not to get pregnant out of wedlock . I would use the word immoral , but I guess that is offensive to you ? Because I believe having sex out of wedlock is immoral . When I did it , you did it , , the thing is to understand people get lonely , have sex drives , are human , and dealing with a very permissive culture .
The 60s I see promoting some very good things , it also was full of deception . no such thing as free love .


I think personally we have gone past the tipping point .

P

Yah because many of our conservatives sisters and brothers are using marriage to attack out of wedlock people and using it as a wedge issue to condemn them. Instead of lifting them up and exalting the lowly you were attacking them. Do I need to copy and post what you said earlier?

Yeah you do the condemning , my conseravtive church sure doesn't . , condemning them ? I was advocating for them , because a man of God who says he promotes the Love of Christ will always try at least to teach those he cares about Bibical truth . You see teaching indivdual responsibility as condemnation . That is not how I intended it , and its why i flipped out in anger when accused of using race . It had NOTHING to do with race , it is what happens to kids when adults screw up and around .

You

Condemn people ? Christ said what God put together let not man separate . He wanted marriages not ending in divorce . He wants us safe , he was not giving the rules to live by to hurt us or belittle us .

P

Leave the gays alone, let them live as they see fit, work on the church and let us love. It really should be that simple.

p



Why don't you leave them alone . I dont do anything to hurt gays , never have never will . Supporting marriage is seen by the liberals , pagans and liberal churches , the judges of hearts and minds as mean spirited . People were supporting marriages through their Faith before homosexuality was known to have as many people involved in that sexuality .

Supporting my values have nothing to do with condemning homosexual behavior . You saying it is has shows little understanding of a culture you claim to know so much about you feel you need to attack it . Your Mom most likely came from another generation , people see things differently . One good thing about the gay rights movement is the fact people were alerted to the mis treatment that was going on in bars and such . That should not happen , gays are our equals . However your comments seem to make them with liberals as our betters .


I know many people who have changed , who live quite and happy lives . Yes they feel ridiculed by many people of my Faith , but if you talked to them you would also know how hated they are by homsexuals who can not lead a hetrosexual life or see no reason to , In fatc it reminds me a little of how Rick views a black man who supports the things I do , sees abortion as wrong , has my values as being only propped up by whites . Then speaking to discrimination issues , well you loose me when people think like that . I have little respect for a person who believes you have to agree or disagree with them to respect them .


The high horse from the left perverts the very nature of real issue , the guy or women stuck with same sex desires . I will not judge them , but I certainly will not celebrate the act of same sex .


You

Then where is the empathy? You want us to come to your side and look at it from your perspective and drop ours. Ok I did.

Me

Well good point .. You were due to make one .

You

The question is do you all feel the same way about people like my sister, people for whom your belief system doesn't work and can't work for.



Me



What the heck are you talking about . This April I am going to my sisters wedding , she is a Lesbian . Do I support Gay Marriage , no , do I love and respect my sister , yes . Do I wish my sister would have married a guy , sure , do I love her any less , No . Do I accept her the way she is , of course . Would I walk in a gay parade , if it advocated trating homosexuals with dignity and respect , I would hold the banner . The other issues of marriage and such , no I don't . For that , I am a bigot . I understand , really I do . The same folks who advoate and make such a big deal of the right not enforcing their values , are the first to call someone like me a bigot for not accepting their values .



You

Your system works for you because of the work you put in it and because of the faith you have. Not everyone has that. They should not be forced to live like they did.

Me

as if , Only the left has the right to preach what is acceptable about culture and right and wrong . Because there is no wrong or right is there . Intersting some of the most value oriented folks I know are liberals . Yet they deny the basic support that kids need to have those same values , they believe they have no right to promote a value system that keeps them safe like they have for their kids .



You

From your posts it sounds like your defense of marriage is more about trying to fit some people into a social norm that hurts kids.

Me

From you rview it appears you rather have people support your values of no values . That actually leave values up to the individual . . Right or wrong depends on what each one believes , Leaving God out of it .



Whats the difference between the pagan and the Christian ? The teachings of the fact we are the vessel of the Holy Spirit . That sexual sin was wrong , and actually seen as the greatest of sins . Why ? Becuase it hurts us the most , it deceives us , wounds our hearts that causes us to hurt our future ralationships .



You belief that anything goes is not promoting your values is not deceiving yourself , its makes me believe the left , especially the religious left has been decived by the powers in this world .

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

Only the left has the right to preach what is acceptable about culture and right and wrong. Because there is no wrong or right is there. Intersting some of the most value oriented folks I know are liberals. Yet they deny the basic support that kids need to have those same values, they believe they have no right to promote a value system that keeps them safe like they have for their kids.

That's ridiculous. The fact that this blog exists is proof that "liberals" believe in at least some right and wrong -- they just don't always define it in the way that you do. Anyway, did you read "God's Politics"? If you did, you certainly read Jim Wallis railing about the Super Bowl halftime show in 2003. Besides, the way conservatives do values it's about keeping people in line, not "keeping them safe."

payshun · 2 years ago

"Why don't you leave them alone?"

Good question and even though I know you were being facetious I like standing up for the little guy.

"For that , I am a bigot"

Yep. This is why. This has to do w/ equal citizenship rights. Since when should a gay couple be treated any different than a heterosexual couple? But I am glad to see you at least coming part of the way. My question would then would be does your sister feel loved by your stance and how does she wish you would change to accomadate her? Because that's what love does.

"Whats the difference between the pagan and the Christian ? The teachings of the fact we are the vessel of the Holy Spirit . That sexual sin was wrong , and actually seen as the greatest of sins . Why ? Becuase it hurts us the most , it deceives us , wounds our hearts that causes us to hurt our future ralationships ."

Like I don't know this already. That's why I live a way that emulates those values. I know that my friends and others don't. They know where I stand and you say I accomadate sin by not confronting them and standing up for CHristian standards. My take on it is that I can't advocate for standards when they are not embracing them. In that way they must decide how they shall live. Unfortunately that's the world. I don't try to advocate for something that helps to create legalism.

"From you rview it appears you rather have people support your values of no values . That actually leave values up to the individual . . Right or wrong depends on what each one believes , Leaving God out of it ."

What are you talking about? The rights of the individual have always chosen the values created by the individual. You see that here you see that everywhere. But I find most of what you are talking about to be selective. But then again who isn't selective about their biblical values. I follow the Hebrew Prophets and their theology informs my lens on Jesus. I follow the Catholic and Orthodox mystics they inform my view on Jesus and Jesus informs my views on them.

My point is that we are individually living by our own standards but we try to live by some in the bible. Humanity doesn't seem that good at it. I don't want God out of it. I just don't want him followed legalistically. I don't want laws dictating how we follow God. From me it sounds like you are part way there but that you ultimately want people to choose Jesus because they love him. Ultimately we agree on that.

You are right anything goes for those that are outside of the church because quite honestly anything does. We can say this is the standard and proclaim but unlike us they don't have the Holy Spirit in the same way we do and that means they can do what they want w/o any boundaries. I don't want a single commandment of God followed legalistically. I think we can agree w/ that.

"From you rview it appears you rather have people support your values of no values . That actually leave values up to the individual . . Right or wrong depends on what each one believes , Leaving God out of it ."

Stop saying I have no values. I have a lot of values, fairness, equality, love, empowerment, societal uplift, creation care, fearlessness, and can I say love again. Those are a small cross section of my values and they deserve the same respect you are expecting for me.

I can freely admit that I was wrong to assume that you were pressing your pro-marriage stance on my sister or on everyone but from what you wrote it sounded like that. I can only go by what you wrote and expose fear or what have you when I see it.

p

payshun · 2 years ago

"You see teaching indivdual responsibility as condemnation ."

That's not true at all. This is where I see your views here as paternalistic nonsense. I am all for teaching people individual responsibility but guess what? We are all adults and those lessons were not only taught but lived out and guess what? I don't need to teach them any more and why are you trying to teach me lessons on this anyway? Don't you think you should be focusing more people at your church or for that matter your own kids or for that matter kids in general or for... Basically what i am saying is that I am already living this out.

You know what I see as condemnation. I see trying to hold people to standards they don't meet as dangerous and leading to judgement and condemnation. I hate condemnation in all it's forms and as a Christian I do my best alleviate it whenever I find it.

p

One last thing I am not saying I want you to support anyone's sex act. I am saying that we as Christians must do our best to find any area of judgement w/n us and kill it.

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

"You see teaching indivdual responsibility as condemnation ."

That's not true at all. This is where I see your views here as paternalistic nonsense. I am all for teaching people individual responsibility but guess what? We are all adults and those lessons were not only taught but lived out and guess what? I don't need to teach them any more and why are you trying to teach me lessons on this anyway?"


Because you see them as paternal nonsense .


"I hate condemnation in all it's forms and as a Christian I do my best alleviate it whenever I find it."

p

I can see that . Many liberals share your view . I never felt condemned when people talked about relationships out of marriage , I felt convicted by God that I did some things that caused many people hurt . Your right , too bad people try to impose what the Holy Spirit does in His Own time .

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

But I am glad to see you at least coming part of the way. My question would then would be does your sister feel loved by your stance and how does she wish you would change to accomadate her? Because that's what love does.


You are deceived Payshun , and the bigotry you promote is quite sad . I did not come to this blog because I wanted to defend the republican party . As a Christian I was hoping that common sense and the church was getting its act together /

Forget the handing out comment , your Mother must be embassased .


I have come part of the way , that is the typical arrogant leftist racially motived blathering that is accepted here . . You would change your Faith so I feel accepted ? What elese must I do to confrom to your ideas and values .
And the basic understanding of the evils of child molestation and other harm done to children is because a lack of the nuclear family , includding homosexual marriages , you defend that to the poit of calling for the defence of children .
Thats just liberal perversion of truth . You supoport perversion , the world must celebrate your brand of Christianity . n fact , you are the world .
Protect the underdog , how about kids , how about the unborn , they have only conservatives basically speaking to their behalf .

Your a Christian ? You definetly lack the love you promote you have . You can only love what you agree with ?


My sisters beliefs are accepted at the public school my children went to , people like you don't accept myself or the Christian belief .
They mock those who have found peace and love through Christ , you said nothing of the sexually confused person who found peace through the love and Forgiveness of Christ . You never stick up for the Black man who is in the minority who shares my values and faith . You stick up for the little man ? You support perversions , welcome to the world , you support the world P .

Calling me a bigot now ,
On a page that started out with you and a couple others chit chatting about me and my abusive remarks .You hate condemnation . Oh yeah , your a liberal , this is truth . Youtr truth , everyone is allowed to have their trut , unless you have Christ in your life .


Converstaion over . The real truth comes out , thanks for your superior intelellctuality and love of others . You have promoted your cause and shown me what is really behind it . .

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

I never felt condemned when people talked about relationships out of marriage, I felt convicted by God that I did some things that caused many people hurt. Your right, too bad people try to impose what the Holy Spirit does in His Own time.

But we've strayed from the original topic, which is racial injustice based on economics. The point some of us have tried to make here is that economics is involved in the kind of immoral behavior that you denounce (and I basically agree with you) and that you refuse to see that. If even the majority of black children were brought up in two-parent families, would things be different? Not on your life. Because if the father doesn't have a job that will allow him to support the family he simply will not last long.

If you are serious about black families staying together, find a way to get black men good jobs -- now. Then they will eventually have the moral authority to teach their sons how to become men and to cover their daughters so that they're not running after some lech concerned only with "getting his."

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

That's ridiculous. The fact that this blog exists is proof that "liberals" believe in at least some right and wrong


Their right and wrong . So Rick did I read P viewpoint right , if you don't believe homosexual relationships are a positive thing you are a bigot ?

I can respect the person , and repect you as having a right to free speech , but I don't have to agree with what you are saying . I believe that is my view on homosexuality ,a I think I stated it that way . In fact I bet I have worshiped Christ with more Homosexuals then the people here combined . That should not not matter , but after being called a bigot it comes to mind as a defenisive measure .


I find that going against scripture , for indeed that would be putting personal beliefs here in this world as the more important .

That is what P is doing , using name calling and intimidation as his methods . Not the love of God , or the belief the Holy Spirit could lead me to that understanding . He is right , the Holy Spirit would not contradict the word of God .
If I was hurting gays , yes he has a point . But because I support marriage , it has as much hatred towards polygamous believers as Homosexuals . In fact it has more to do with hoping kids have a mom and dad .

And year , I learned not to involve other races in the conversation . That is sad , but obvious the way it is . As if i was trying to hurt anyone .


P is the perfect example of the lefts right and wrong , it has noting about right and wrong , only his right and wrong . Based on his own worldly logic .

Rick Nowlin · 2 years ago

So Rick did I read P viewpoint right, if you don't believe homosexual relationships are a positive thing you are a bigot?

I'll let him answer for himself. But here's the question I have for you: Why does the Scripture say that homosexual conduct is wrong?

In fact I bet I have worshiped Christ with more Homosexuals then the people here combined. That should not not matter, but after being called a bigot it comes to mind as a defenisive measure.

In my case you might lose that bet, since my last two churches had plenty.

And year, I learned not to involve other races in the conversation. That is sad, but obvious the way it is. As if i was trying to hurt anyone.
This thread was openly about race, if you remember. As we said earlier, at some point it needs to be addressed.

Anonymous · 2 years ago

Why does the Scripture say that homosexual conduct is wrong?

Jesus spoke in specfic terms about how he had created intent hetrosexuality . He said from the beginningof the Cration God made them male and female . For this cause man shall leave his Mother and Father . and cleave to his wife, and the two shall make one flesh . What therefore God has Put together , let no man put as under. Matthew 19.4-6

Leviticus just used by Wallis in the immigration debate about foreigners , say "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a women , that is detestable .

Also Rick I know you "know the words" in the Bible , Romas says In the same way Men abandoned natural relations and were inflamed with lust fro one another . men committed indecent acts and other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion"

As I said , I will not put down another , or place their Cosntitutuional Rights on a lower or higher scale then any other . But no , I will not celebrate homosexuality , I see it as just another result of all of ours sinfull nature .


"In my case you might lose that bet, since my last two churches had plenty."

Really , interesting . You sat always the church you attend is a Bible believing Church . Would be interested if you shared how your churches handled this . I know of only a couple of homosexuals who attended my church ,a nd from the sermons that once and while they might have heard , would not be a place they would feel comfortable with . I responded to the love of Christ , fire and brimstone turns me off .

Does your Pastor dismiss it as unimportant ?

You
This thread was openly about race, if you remember. As we said earlier, at some point it needs to be addressed.

Posted by: Rick Nowlin

And I addressed it openly , stated I had no answer , but knew it important for families to stay intact . That is from my culture , my view , and yes African Americans do share that . In fact the latest Pew poll says that increasingly people are aware of this in the African American polulation . The discrimination aspect I was all ears to , not now of course . I do not have that capacity as you have made it clear.

Too bad Nutshell never responded , I believe you intimidated her from joing into an exchange .


I actually said I could not see if from another perspective , reached out , lost my temper , and finally been called the bigot , of course with different concerns of respect for one another .

Again , you win ,

Mick Sheldon · 2 years ago

"and I basically agree with you) and that you refuse to see that. If even the majority of black children were brought up in two-parent families, would things be different? Not on your life. Because if the father doesn't have a job that will allow him to support the family he simply will not last long."

And way to late now isn't . Because your answer makes all the sense in the world to me . I would only say, intact damiles give the poor folks , in fact all people a better chance to handle the hardships of life . , thats all .

But your point would have been well taken and the conversation would have gone on in a fruitfull manner in my opinion if you said that a long time ago . . You acknowledged my point , and said but hey now we have to deal with this over here . That would have been Perfect ! But as I said , a little late , I am the only one listening now , and you already have concluded your view of me .

I was all ears , But don't expect me not to be who I am and see things from perspective of God wanting us in strong Familes . If it takes hashing out what makes that so , and you have a perspective , especially from being discriminated against , common sense says If I was concerned at least about My Faith and the family of God and the families that support those Foundations , I would listen to you out of hope I could one day help , at least understand the problems better .

You are too busy making sure I am in a class of people that have a nasty stigma attached to them . I have always lived in a very dominated liberal political and culturallly liberal area , and that area has always added their disdain for Christianity along with conservative stigma ,

They mock the things you have written about , superbly at times , I can not write my ideas as you can .
They dislike a concept of a God who they need to bow down to , you shold or I hope you understand what I mean .
. Because they are secualar liberals , with a greater love of them being god , the right here has at times acted like they can talk for God .
I understand that arrogance as being troublesome , and hurts the Cause of Christ .

But you see , you are so right , everyone else stopped listening .
.

payshun · 2 years ago

Your a Christian ? You definetly lack the love you promote you have . You can only love what you agree with ?

I don't agree w/ anyone. I love you but I still think your stance is bigotted. I think that because you are so concerned w/ how people practice your sexuality you are focused on legalism.

Leave my mother out of this. You know I have been way too nice. I could resort to what you are now doing and I am sorry if I offended you but you asked me a question and I answered honestly. You are partial to your own group at the expense of others. Don't ask questions if you don't want answers. Don't yell at me if you ask the questions. Would you prefer if I lied and said I thought you weren't a bigot?

This is the definition of a bigot
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ

You may be loving on some level to your sister. I don't dispute the fact that you really want the best for her. You see that best as a man and a woman. My mother thinks the same way. But we live in a secular world. They should have the right to decide for themselves. Your right that is worldly logic. Your right that is what America is founded on. We have never been a Christian nation and we should at least let all citizens decide how they should live.

"My sisters beliefs are accepted at the public school my children went to , people like you don't accept myself or the Christian belief .
They mock those who have found peace and love through Christ , you said nothing of the sexually confused person who found peace through the love and Forgiveness of Christ . You never stick up for the Black man who is in the minority who shares my values and faith . You stick up for the little man ? You support perversions , welcome to the world , you support the world P . "

As usual you don't know what you are talking about. I have worshipped w/ more exgay men then anyone here. Trust me on that. I was part of ministries designed to help educate and heal people that wanted it. So don't go there. It's just better for you.

"And year , I learned not to involve other races in the conversation . That is sad , but obvious the way it is . As if i was trying to hurt anyone . "

I know it is not your intent to hurt anyone and yet you called Nutshell a butt head when she did nothing to you. You never intend to hurt anyone and yet you did and will continue to. Guess what you're human. We all do it.

Oh and I am not trying to intimidate anyone. If I was I would have told you to shut up. I would have done a lot of other things to intimidate you. But I did not. You are projecting as always. That's what you do Mick and guess what I still love you.

I could be a bigot if I was a gay man but I am not. Then I would say that I am standing up for all things liberal. Guess what I am not. I am for all manner of protecting children and for the record homosexuality doesn't lead to pedophelia. They are not related except in expression.

Your'e right Mick, I am not always loving. I want to promote more love and at times I suck at showing it. i am sorry. I do respect conservatives. It's their views I can't stomach. As I said earlier I have a very conservative mentor. he is white and you know what he loves me inspite of myself and you know what I love him too inspite of himself. We don't agree but we love. That's my point and I am sorry for so poorly conveying that.

p

payshun · 2 years ago

More on centering or contemplation

Basil Pennington, one of the best known proponents of the centering prayer technique, has delineated the guidelines for centering prayer:[2]

Sit comfortably with your eyes closed, relax, and quiet yourself. Be in love and faith to God.
Choose a sacred word that best supports your sincere intention to be in the Lord's presence and open to His divine action within you (i.e. "Jesus," "Lord," "God," "Savior," "Abba," "Divine," "Shalom," "Spirit," "Love," etc.).
Let that word be gently present as your symbol of your sincere intention to be in the Lord's presence and open to His divine action within you.
Whenever you become aware of anything (thoughts, feelings, perceptions, images, associations, etc.), simply return to your sacred word, your anchor.
Ideally, the prayer will reach the point where the person is not engaged in their thoughts as they arrive on their stream of consciousness. This is the "unknowing" referenced in the 14th century book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centering_prayer

p